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Old 08-13-2014, 04:00 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Collar types

Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.
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Old 08-13-2014, 04:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It is simply a different method of training. I used it when I first learned dog training a long long time ago. It can be used correctly, with minimal stress to the dog. Not saying it will ever be a similar method to a gentle leader/easy walk. But if used correctly it can deliver similar results. I personally use mainly positive reinforcement and tools like the gentle leader/easy walk, but I don't rule out tools like the prong or ecollar completely. Not every method will work for every dog, so you have to be adaptable to the dog you are working with.

Plus if you go into dogs that are working in sport like IPO, the collars are used with very specific focus on increasing/decreasing a dog's drive in very high intensity situations.

The big caveat is I only support the use of tools like these when they are used CORRECTLY. And that even includes the gentle leader/easy walk. People can screw up the application of those as well. Can't tell you how many people I've had to correct because they put an easy walk on their dog and were using it to yank the dog's feet out from under them and slamming the dog's head into the ground, or people who yank the gentle leader or attach the dog to a flexi and let them torque their neck when they hit the end of 16 feet at full speed. Same thing with people who throw prong collars on their dogs way too loose then never do any training and expect the collar to teach the dog to walk properly. Every tool can be abused.

I will always hate choke collars and refuse to ever use one on a dog. That's my only exception.
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Old 08-13-2014, 07:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I use treats and lures and positive reinforcement to train my now 8 month old pup, but there are times when he sees another dog and even with the tastiest treat or favorite toy I cannot get him to focus back on me. I have a martingale but it does nothing to help reestablish focus with this pup. I use the chain collar and he minds much better. If the collar tightens up and doesn't loosen quickly I have him stand and I make sure it releases. I can also hook the live ring with the hook on his car harness which limits how tightly it can constrict.

If I hook the lead to his car harness only he knows he is allowed to pull. We use that harness to connect to the car's seat belt, for water play, and we have another harness for IPO. Using a No Pull style harness might be confusing.

I'm not fond of chocking my dog but I've heard him cough and struggle more with the martingale and flat collar than the chain.

It all depends on the dog. With one dog I used a chain but almost never had to correct my dog once she learned how to heel on command. Another dog did well on a martingale but she was 22 lbs and not terribly stubborn.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:10 AM   #4 (permalink)
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why? because they work. i never walk my dogs without prong collars on. i never actually have to yank them. only the slightest shake of the leash to redirect attention if needs be. if you don't believe in using them then don't. what's the point of this thread?
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:53 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I've used flat collars, no pull harness, regular harness, halti's, gentle leaders, and prongs. Delgado is the first dog that needed a prong, he's a WL GSD and medium to high drive so a collar pop on a flat while he's in drive or distracted is going to do nada. I trained him every day from the day he came home at 9 weeks and his biggest issue was he hated to walk being restricted - he just wanted to run and play and didn't understand slowing down and keeping with the group.

I took him to classes, had multiple trainers work with me and take him and work with him using different methods. Nothing worked and at the end I was just tossed the leash and told to keep working at it. It wasn't until he matured that I saw good progress but when he became dog reactive at 9 months I knew I was out of options and purchased a prong collar. It's been nothing but wonderful, 99% of corrections are self-corrections where the collar tightens and he realizes he needs to step back without me moving a muscle. The amount of force I was using to hold him back or maneuverer him was very taxing on me both physically and mentally and that is negated. He wears his prong and I walk with confidence because I know if push comes to shove I have what I need to control him between my body, voice, and collar

Use what works for you, it's that simple. Before I tried a prong I would have hesitated to say whether I really believe in them or not but after seeing the difference I've learned to not judge a book by the cover. I've tried it on myself and it really doesn't hurt much

Same goes with ecollars, I've never used one but if push came to shove I would get the best one for me and get a trainer to show me how to use it. If it worked then great, if it didn't I'd try something else

Most people who escalate to prongs and ecollars have exhausted the others

Also, realize that John Smith on the street most likely never learned how to use either collar properly so don't base your judgements on him Have a trainer demonstrate and judge the response for yourself
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:54 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I was against it too but I realised that some dogs like mine are gonna need more than positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement only works when we are alone but when another dog comes she just goes haywire. Trust me, I tried for 6 months before giving it up and finally getting her a choke chain. Now, she is much better behaved.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.

Depends what you want out of training and the standards you set for yourself and clients. Depends on the type of dog your working with.

If you want to use a band aid like a gentle leader or easywalk then go for it.

If you want to teach the dog quickly and clearly then use a prong or some othe technique.

Here is a very soft wiem that I used both prong and e collar on for recall and pet heeling. Prong was used to teach the dog the concept of staying on the hip. E collar was layered over to add reliability. This was 3 sessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa0X...eBPdDKA09Ifzew

Now the dog can be off leash and enjoys greater freedom to explore the world while living in an urban environment.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.
I'm not comfortable with the injuries that are likely with gentle leaders and no pull harnesses, personally. Pinch collars are safe and effective, and a lot easier for me to use (and look better, IMO) than the harnesses and head collars. Bother the dog and me less.

I've never had much success with a head collar or no-pull harness when I've tried them. Every dog is going to be different, some they may work for and others they definitely won't. Have to have the tools in your belt to assess the situation and apply the correct ideas to the dog in front of you.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.
Will you ever be able to walk your dog without putting a gentle lead on it first?

Whatever you use should be a training tool. The end goal is to have to no longer use that tool except for training. Imo the end result is not having to put any kind of tool on a dog just to walk it. It should be able to walk fine on a flat collar or no collar at all. If you have to use a gentle leader for the rest of the dogs life then you haven't trained anything.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Will you ever be able to walk your dog without putting a gentle lead on it first?

Whatever you use should be a training tool. The end goal is to have to no longer use that tool except for training. Imo the end result is not having to put any kind of tool on a dog just to walk it. It should be able to walk fine on a flat collar or no collar at all. If you have to use a gentle leader for the rest of the dogs life then you haven't trained anything.
Well said. That is exactly what I tell my clients. The goal of training using tools is to one day not need them. To just be able to get the desired behaviors from your dog using body language and voice commands. Luckily, my husky learned after a while with treats, harness, more exercise, and eventually he didn't need those tools anymore. My gsd was a perfect gentleman from day one. He never needed anything, not even a leash for walking, he would heel by my side without the use of any kind of tool, just my voice command. Ofcourse i walked him on a leash to cover my own butt in case of liability, but it was nice knowing he didnt need it... miss my perfect dog :-)
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