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-   -   Teaching an out on an extremely high drive 9mo old pup (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/460617-teaching-out-extremely-high-drive-9mo-old-pup.html)

belladonnalily 06-14-2014 10:01 PM

Teaching an out on an extremely high drive 9mo old pup
 
I posted last week about a 9mo pup I recently acquired. My Internet has been down and I've been so busy with the new farm and kennel that I didn't keep the thread rolling.

Anyway, Fin has been doing pretty well. He's learnin how to be outside of a kennel more and thinks romping in the fields and swimming holes is great fun. He is good about staying close and seems to have bonded with me. He will now sit Here and Sit without too much bouncing, which is a huge improvement. He is a serious jumper.

So it's time for more serious stuff. He has NO concept of out. He wants to tug and take anything and everything. Tonight I picked up a blanket in the yard to put away and it was game on. There was NO getting him to release it. I'm not in the least bit afraid of getting bit, and I don't back down, but this little guy is lightening fast and tenancious. I was completely amazed that nothing I did made him back off. He won. I bled. I would have kept going but it was clear it was fun for him so I wasn't accomplishing anything.

Any suggestions? Besides the obvious, which is don't pick up or hold anything remotely interesting without a pinch collar and leash on him.

FWIW, I taught my older, much bigger pup an out at a younger age so I never have had to deal with it in an older pup. And this guy is obviously very strong-willed and strong-nerved.

onyx'girl 06-14-2014 10:11 PM

sounds like he has a ton of freedom. I don't know that outing at this point is going to be successful when he has basically no structure or rules(according to your description of his life right now).
I personally don't really teach an out at this age, I'd lift the dog til the out(maybe verbally mark it when they do with the word you'll use for the command) and keep the pup in drive when training.

"LEAVE IT" is a different scenario. That command means now, and corrections are involved if the dog doesn't do it. BUT the dog needs to know the command before ever getting corrected. So teach it in a lower state of drive, with a piece of food or toy, with a verbal wait, leave it, then mark/reward when dog complies. Reward with a different treat/toy than what the dog was enticed with. I'd keep him on a long line while you are training and proofing this.

belladonnalily 06-14-2014 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onyx'girl (Post 5643489)
sounds like he has a ton of freedom. I don't know that outing at this point is going to be successful when he has basically no structure or rules(according to your description of his life right now).
I personally don't really teach an out at this age, I'd lift the dog til the out(maybe verbally mark it when they do with the word you'll use for the command) and keep the pup in drive when training.

"LEAVE IT" is a different scenario. That command means now, and corrections are involved if the dog doesn't do it. BUT the dog needs to know the command before ever getting corrected. So teach it in a lower state of drive, with a piece of food or toy, with a verbal wait, leave it, then mark/reward when dog complies. Reward with a different treat/toy than what the dog was enticed with. I'd keep him on a long line while you are training and proofing this.

Not sure why you think there is no structure? I take him to my training area 3 times a day on a long line or leash to work on OB. I spend time at every feeding, walking or turnout mastering "Wait". He gets one hike across the farm every day. It's his only "free" time. Besides that, he is kenneled. He isn't ready to live in the house yet. Sorry I didn't make all of that clear.

Lifting him for an Out hasn't worked for the most part. For small things he picks up, it does. For things I have that entice him, it does nothing except fire him up more. I suppose I need to hold him until he let's go, but I don't want to "hang" him when he isn't being aggressive with ne, per se, but just extremely focused and driven. He definitely has a different "eye" than my other boy.

He's really a sweet, happy boy for the most part. Its just that he has had NO training at all, and he seems so driven. Definitely a challenge. So, maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I recognize that he's my first high-drive dog too, and so he's GOING you be different.

Should I not allow him any free time? I felt like a hike was a good thing as long as he stayed close. We mix in some training there too.

belladonnalily 06-14-2014 11:12 PM

FWIW, we are working on Leave Its on the leash and long line. He's actually pretty response to mild corrections on the leash. The blanket situation happened when I turned him into the kennel yard for a few while I was cleaning up and realized I left a blanklet out. I already learned that I can't hold a toy of ball around him.

Bob_McBob 06-14-2014 11:22 PM

Teaching Your Dog to Play Tug-of-War | ASPCA

belladonnalily 06-15-2014 07:37 AM

Bob, thanks for the link. I will read thru it more carefully this afternoon. Treats don't work...once he's locked on, he doesn't care about food. Holding it between my legs won't work either. I will try covering his eyes.

I really love working with this guy...he's so sharp. But that comes with a price! He's taught me tons in short period of time.

I will also try waiting on taking him hiking for a while longer and see if keeping him very structured and controlled will help. I guess I felt bad because he'd been raised in a kennel with little or no socialization or handling, and that a little time to be puppy would be a good thing.

Blanketback 06-15-2014 07:45 AM

Have you tried 2 ball?

onyx'girl 06-15-2014 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belladonnalily (Post 5643578)
Not sure why you think there is no structure? I take him to my training area 3 times a day on a long line or leash to work on OB. I spend time at every feeding, walking or turnout mastering "Wait". He gets one hike across the farm every day. It's his only "free" time. Besides that, he is kenneled. He isn't ready to live in the house yet. Sorry I didn't make all of that clear.

Lifting him for an Out hasn't worked for the most part. For small things he picks up, it does. For things I have that entice him, it does nothing except fire him up more. I suppose I need to hold him until he let's go, but I don't want to "hang" him when he isn't being aggressive with ne, per se, but just extremely focused and driven. He definitely has a different "eye" than my other boy.

He's really a sweet, happy boy for the most part. Its just that he has had NO training at all, and he seems so driven. Definitely a challenge. So, maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I recognize that he's my first high-drive dog too, and so he's GOING you be different.

Should I not allow him any free time? I felt like a hike was a good thing as long as he stayed close. We mix in some training there too.

You didn't share that information in your first post so from what I intially read, it sounded like he was enjoying a life free of structure.
Why isn't he ready to live in the house? Personally I would start teaching him house manners now, manage his behaviors and let him learn what life living inside with his family is. Living in a kennel is fine, if that is what you want for him, but he'll never be ready to live inside if he can't experience it and learn how to do it.

As far as the out, lifting him til he drops it and marking it may click in. Reward him as soon as he outs so he knows outing is good.

Cassidy's Mom 06-15-2014 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belladonnalily (Post 5643578)
Not sure why you think there is no structure? I take him to my training area 3 times a day on a long line or leash to work on OB. I spend time at every feeding, walking or turnout mastering "Wait". He gets one hike across the farm every day. It's his only "free" time. Besides that, he is kenneled. He isn't ready to live in the house yet.

Can I ask how long you've had him? "Recently" is pretty vague. And what are your goals for him?

I don't have anything to add about teaching an out beyond what others have already said, but I do think Jane is totally right about teaching him house manners and managing his behavior starting now, rather than later. Keeping him kenneled isn't going to make him ready to live in the house, only actually living in the house will do that. It seems like you're just delaying the inevitable. Even if his OB improves outdoors he'll still need work indoors, so why wait? A lot of dogs get stuck spending most of their time outdoors because when they do get to come in they're so excited that they behave badly and then they get tossed outside again rather than teaching the dog how to behave in the house. (I'm not suggesting you're like that!)

Can you crate him indoors for some of the time, and then let him out on leash and work on OB in the house? What about tethering him and putting him on a down with a chew toy? Mat work is excellent for teaching a dog to hang out and chill.

belladonnalily 06-15-2014 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onyx'girl (Post 5644305)
You didn't share that information in your first post so from what I intially read, it sounded like he was enjoying a life free of structure.
Why isn't he ready to live in the house? Personally I would start teaching him house manners now, manage his behaviors and let him learn what life living inside with his family is. Living in a kennel is fine, if that is what you want for him, but he'll never be ready to live inside if he can't experience it and learn how to do it.

As far as the out, lifting him til he drops it and marking it may click in. Reward him as soon as he outs so he knows outing is good.

Well, the house thing is a little complicated. We are in the process of moving here to the farm and kennel. We are buying the place from a long-time friend, and much of her stuff is still here. They should have everything out in a few weeks, but for now I'd rather not complicate things by bringing him inside. And between getting the kennel going, moving, and getting farm cleaned up I don't spend much time inside anyway. It's basically a place to crash at night right now. It's a long story, but eventually he'll be inside.

Sorry I didn't make the rest clear. I'm typing on my phone as we lost Internet the other night during a storm. So it's tough to proof my posts....


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