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-   -   Sick of the e collar debate... (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/440801-sick-e-collar-debate.html)

itsharv 04-20-2014 09:59 PM

Sick of the e collar debate...
 
I've been researching on training with a e collar for about two months now to prep myself for the start of this new training tool. I neither have a trainer in my area or the money to get a professional but I also would not go into this blindly. I love my dog as much as my kids and ten times more then any girl I've ever met so I want the best for him and would never want to hurt him. In doing research mostly on this forum I have to pick through all the debate on what is better and what is right and what is wrong. I understand some healthy debate is good for a subject but it seems like every topic that comes up on this is nothing but an argument and no valuable information and advice being brought up.
There's obviously lots of different ways and theories for training in any aspect. For the most part I'm sure the people on here actually do care about their dogs or they wouldn't be here looking for info. As long as people aren't abusing their dogs I think we should cool it with the arguments. Let people do their research and choose which method to use. I Chose Lou castles way. Weather that seems right or wrong to you unless your adding useful information just stay out of it. And let me and others get our advice while the other side of the fence gets their info and advice. Thankyou
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kjdreyer 04-20-2014 10:25 PM

Aw, you're no fun!;) I think that's one of the many reasons people join a forum, to discuss and argue and to learn different view points! And argue some more! And luckily on this forum we all play nice, and there are literally reams of valuable info to be had. Good luck and have fun training!

VTGirlT 04-20-2014 10:27 PM

I hear what you are saying!
However, humans will be humans if you know what i mean! ;) We always will debate and bicker about things, making personal attacks to others to make ourselves feel better. Some are better about keeping it just a debate on a none personal level than others. So it goes!

I'm with you. Except I was completely against the e-collar before i got my dog and the prong collar. I'm not sold on the choke collar after doing lots of research, i just wouldn't use that on my dog.

I do use the prong collar on my dog. And I am going to use the e-collar. I'm just researching, getting as much information, practicing on people before i use on my dog. :) Like you, i LOVE my dog. She helped me come a long way in my life and I am very fond and connected to her, and am absolutely committed to her. Although positive reinforcement, counter conditioning, etc. all work so does other tools such as e-collar.
I am a vegetarian, HUGE animal lover ever since i can remember, i use to work at a shelter, my dog gets whatever she needs typically before i get it- and yet i have an e-collar that i plan on using on my dog once i feel i am ready to do so. I think if people understood that not everyone plans on shocking your dog to smithereens is the plan, and that it actually could save a lot of dogs lives(literally, i can think of a handful of dogs that were euthanized at a shelter with empty kennels because of behavioral issues that needed a tool such as e-collar to help them) and that it is not such a bad tool to use. But like with everything it should not get into dumb people's hands, but neither should dogs! And for those good owners who just don't know how to use one and still use it, they need to be educated- and that would happen more if their were more good trainers willing to show people how to use e-collars, more articles on how to use them correctly, etc.
So i think people who fight the battle of "ban e-collors" should spend their energy on the battle of dumb, abusive, bad people owning dogs. Thats my rant of the day. LOL

Baillif 04-20-2014 10:38 PM

E collars aren't voodoo. They aren't magical dog ruiners if not used to a certain method.

They are a novel form of punishment at least until the dog gets used to them.

In my experience any form of punishment or negative reinforcement can cause the same superstitious associations you see related to ecollar use. There seem to be a few factors that determine the odds of it happening.

Intensity- the more ouch factor the higher the chance of a superstitious association. They really really want to avoid a high intensity punisher or neg reinforcer from happening again and if it isn't crystal clear as to why it happened then the dog is going to "cover all his bases" so to speak. An e collar can deliver a very highly unpleasant sensation without worry of physical damage to the dog. More so than hitting them with something. Therefore some people will be more likely to blast a dog.

Novelty of the punisher or negative reinforcer- the more novel a punishment the higher a chance of a superstitious association.

Novelty of the environment in which the unpleasant stimulus occurs.

An example of both of those coming together would be the time we had a new dog loose in the training room about to go for a bowl of food off the counter in the break room kitchen and one of us threw our car keys at him without marking the event. The keys didn't even hit the dog but it startled the dog and since both the punishment and the environment were both novel the dog avoided the crap out of that whole area afterward even though the punishment event occurred as the dog was beginning to counter surf.

Clarity- How clear you are to the dog is huge. Lots of factors play into this. Timing, teaching methods, prior experiences, methodologies, consistency.

Even if you do cause a superstitious association you just identify it and show the dog it's not true and fix it.

It's not rocket science. Does require some thought though.

Baillif 04-20-2014 10:44 PM

I tend to use prongs to give direction for negative reinforcement then layer over with e collar and then get rid of the prong. Once the dog knows the behavior it's just a matter of some practice to make sure the dog has it and then the e collar gets used as a punisher. I don't need it though I've gone from prong straight to naked training where the punisher or negative reinforcement is my body. I call it handtronics. It's like tritronics but cheaper. I like to mix it up.

SunCzarina 04-20-2014 10:54 PM

I'm sick of seeing that debate. I've seen too many e-collars used sloppy and as a crutch for not training. 'Gonna zap him' is easier than teaching the 1 y/o dog not to bite the 8 week old puppy because that's what Mistress wants. Or gonna zap her because she barks when we leave her out in the yard all day. All that leaves a bad impression with me. I don't want to get lumped in with all the other pet owners looking for the easy way out. For people who are serious about learning the theory, have at it.

volcano 04-20-2014 10:59 PM

I dont use it often ( the e shock part) but the vibe gets my girl snapping to attention and doing obedience with enthusiasm. Its alot nicer than snapping her leash or dragging her. If shes ignoring me then she does deserve a shock. Shock is also much nicer than pulling on a leash, plus shes sensitive so its only level 9 of 100.

boomer11 04-20-2014 11:07 PM

Ecollar is an amazing tool but imo marker training with treats/toys is still the king of the hill.

The problem with Ecollar is the majority of people use it as a punishment tool. The bad thing is its a really powerful punishment tool. The majority of the public uses it just like volcano described above. Shock the dog for not listening.

Dog still doesn't listen? Let's crank it up a few levels...

SunCzarina 04-21-2014 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomer11 (Post 5406537)
The bad thing is its a really powerful punishment tool. The majority of the public uses it just like volcano described above. Shock the dog for not listening.

Wow Boomer I actually agree with you on something. If my dogs aren't listening, I'm doing something wrong. It's on me to figure out what and fix it. Otto's a hard dog, growing up he often questioned my authority. It was on me to get in his head.

Blanketback 04-21-2014 10:12 AM

I don't understand why there's a debate in the first place, lol. People who can train without them, do. People who want to explore their options re: training tools, learn about them. People who don't want to use ecollars, don't.


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