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-   -   Help training more prompt responses...? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/430881-help-training-more-prompt-responses.html)

sechattin 03-29-2014 04:40 AM

Help training more prompt responses...?
 
So Kaiju is 9 months old and at the point where he knows all of his basics very well (sit, down, stay, come, heel, drop, etc.) but he's getting rather lazy about getting his butt in gear and actually performing the behaviors when I ask. I'm working in more rewarding toys and starting a rotation as well as making his training sessions more engaging, fast-paced, whatever will hold his attention. But since he knows these behaviors and it is very clear to me he's just seeing if he can get away with not doing them or doing them slowly, does anyone have any suggestions for effective ways to introduce consequences for noncompliance/extremely slow compliance? I'd like to start working in reasonable consequences at this time in his training, and up to this point, I have been using completely positive reinforcement methods with him.

Baillif 03-29-2014 07:04 AM

Get a prong collar and an obedience leash. Start layering leash pressure over everything he knows. So for example ask for a sit then leash pressure upward till he does. Do it till you can basically say sit then give a quick sharp pop upward and he's quickly sitting to beat the pop. Reward with toy after every few reps to keep things fun. Be tactful but make it happen. Don't hesitate to find a trainer that can help if you're not sure how to do it.

Deno 03-29-2014 08:55 AM

You can make him as sharp as a razor with an e-collar.

Baillif 03-29-2014 09:14 AM

That works too. Anything that can negative reinforce him.

JeanKBBMMMAAN 03-29-2014 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sechattin (Post 5289449)
So Kaiju is 9 months old and at the point where he knows all of his basics very well (sit, down, stay, come, heel, drop, etc.) but he's getting rather lazy about getting his butt in gear and actually performing the behaviors when I ask. I'm working in more rewarding toys and starting a rotation as well as making his training sessions more engaging, fast-paced, whatever will hold his attention. But since he knows these behaviors and it is very clear to me he's just seeing if he can get away with not doing them or doing them slowly, does anyone have any suggestions for effective ways to introduce consequences for noncompliance/extremely slow compliance? I'd like to start working in reasonable consequences at this time in his training, and up to this point, I have been using completely positive reinforcement methods with him.

Do you have video of you working with him? What are your goals for training?

It sounds like you know that the interest is waning when doing the same things over and over. Do you go to classes like rally, agility and do you think that might be engaging and encourage those behaviors and increase the bond?

I find that the smarter the dog, the slower they get when they are tired of doing things in repetition. Like if I asked you to say your ABCs 20 times a day as an adult. It's going to get sloppy. I have a BC/Chow mix that likes things changed up or she makes her own games - like in an obedience class walking beautifully loose on the leash but going in circles around me because she was bored out of her gourd going in the big circle...since our goal at the time was just to bond, and because she was hilarious, I let it go. If our goal was competition, we would have had to change classes, because that was not the right one for her learning style.

Honestly, a lot of time tone of voice changes a training session, as does my motion. I am not sure we can expect our dogs to act enthusiastic about dull things and if I am bored, they will be for sure. But I think you can still shape these things using non-aversives and get sharp looking dogs and performances.

sechattin 03-29-2014 01:42 PM

I think the ecollar will be out for me. The cost of the collar plus the cost of a good trainer to teach me how to use since I've never used one is probably out of my budget. Plus, I'm just generally uncomfortable with ecollars. I have used prongs before way back in the day, so some prong work to tighten things up sounds good. Baillif, few questions for you - What do you mean by "obedience leash" - are you talking about just a 4-6' lead or something different? Second, the dogs I trained previous with prongs were apparently blockheads because they never became dependent on the prong or figured out that the prong couldn't correct them if it wasn't on, but I'm pretty sure Kaiju will be smarter than that. So advice on making sure he doesn't become collar-wise?

sechattin 03-29-2014 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN (Post 5289985)
Do you have video of you working with him? What are your goals for training?

It sounds like you know that the interest is waning when doing the same things over and over. Do you go to classes like rally, agility and do you think that might be engaging and encourage those behaviors and increase the bond?

I find that the smarter the dog, the slower they get when they are tired of doing things in repetition. Like if I asked you to say your ABCs 20 times a day as an adult. It's going to get sloppy. I have a BC/Chow mix that likes things changed up or she makes her own games - like in an obedience class walking beautifully loose on the leash but going in circles around me because she was bored out of her gourd going in the big circle...since our goal at the time was just to bond, and because she was hilarious, I let it go. If our goal was competition, we would have had to change classes, because that was not the right one for her learning style.

Honestly, a lot of time tone of voice changes a training session, as does my motion. I am not sure we can expect our dogs to act enthusiastic about dull things and if I am bored, they will be for sure. But I think you can still shape these things using non-aversives and get sharp looking dogs and performances.

I think I've done almost everything I can to make things exciting. We rotate between practice for obedience, rally, and agility. Treats have been almost entirely phased out except for teaching new behaviors and the toys I use are ones he doesn't get to play with except as rewards. I can tell he likes the toys because the second they come out, you can see him freeze and he gets a laser focus on the tug/frisbee/etc that I've pulled out. I think I've gotten my general tone and body language as clear as I can make them. I've gone back and forth the past few months asking more experienced trainers to critique my training sessions, having friends tape my sessions so I could see them, even bought a full length mirror to set up so I can see myself as I'm working. The interest is starting to come back little by little, but there are definitely times that it's like it doesn't matter what I do, no reward seems to be motivating enough for him to listen to me. And I know it's not an issue of generalization because it'll be for like a basic sit which I've generalized by the thousands at this point pretty much everywhere he can go. Sometimes I'll ask him for a sit before throwing a ball that he's focused in on and he'll look from the ball to me and stand there. But when I put the ball away as a consequence, he doesn't seem to get that it's a punishment, he just frolicks off on his way.

As far as goals for training, I'm shooting basically for any titles I can earn with him. Currently working on behaviors for Agility, Rally, Obedience, and Therapy work, focusing mostly on the Rally and Agility for now. If I get the extra time at some point in the future, I'm also interested in seeing if Shutzhund would be a good fit. He seems to work best under some pressure.

Baillif 03-29-2014 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sechattin (Post 5291017)
I think the ecollar will be out for me. The cost of the collar plus the cost of a good trainer to teach me how to use since I've never used one is probably out of my budget. Plus, I'm just generally uncomfortable with ecollars. I have used prongs before way back in the day, so some prong work to tighten things up sounds good. Baillif, few questions for you - What do you mean by "obedience leash" - are you talking about just a 4-6' lead or something different? Second, the dogs I trained previous with prongs were apparently blockheads because they never became dependent on the prong or figured out that the prong couldn't correct them if it wasn't on, but I'm pretty sure Kaiju will be smarter than that. So advice on making sure he doesn't become collar-wise?

http://www.all-about-german-shepherd...raided_LRG.jpg

Something like that. Usually 3-4 feet long. I prefer them at 3 feet long or so and a cm or so thick. Some people call them tabs. They are awesome. People always ask us why we use them and we have a hard time sometimes putting into words why they're better than leashes. They just are. I sold one I was using to a client around the same time I was starting Zebu on the contact heeling and didn't even bother starting back up again until I had my new one. It allows you to "feel" everything better. Gotta walk your fingers up and down that leash like a spider moving along a strand of silk. People who use them know what I'm talking about maybe you guys can put it into better words. I just know I love them, especially after they are broken in and super soft.

As for your second question. I don't know what you were doing without seeing you do it. All I know was it was wrong.

As for the collar wise thing. I can only tell you how I look at it. Some people don't care if a dog gets collar wise. If the dog knows he has it on and you mean business then good.

Some put the collars on the dog in a crate or something and then wait 10-15 minutes before talking the dog out and doing obedience so that the dog never learns to associate the collar with the corrections which is pretty much what it means to be collar wise.

My take on it is this. If the dog knows a behavior and I know he knows and he fails to carry it out the consequence will come. I will make it happen. I don't care if he had no equipment on at all that consequence will come in some shape or form. It is independent of the corrective collars, it is independent of how far he is from me at the time, and it is independent of anything he tries to do to make it right. The dog doesn't become collar wise because the collars don't matter when it comes to enforcing a behavior. All the dog associates the collar with is training, and he loves training, therefore he loves the collar.

Baillif 03-29-2014 03:00 PM

To make that a little more clear if the collar was the only thing you used to enforce behavior and the dog figures it out the best case scenario is the dog just does what he's supposed to with the collar on. Worst case scenario he bites you when you try to put it on him.

sechattin 03-29-2014 03:04 PM

Alright, thanks Baillif, that was very clear! I saw a nice looking tab and a Sprenger online not too long ago that I think I'll order. I'll start layering corrections over what he already knows and see how well it works with him.


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