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Any other positive trainers of working lines?

20K views 240 replies 30 participants last post by  glowingtoadfly 
#1 ·
If you work with clicker training/ positive only methods, what have your experiences been with this type of dog? How do you handle discipline? What role does exercise play in discipline and how often and how do you exercise your dogs? Where do you train?
 
#35 ·
Lol, it was cheaper on kindle. Not saying i'm throwing the baby out with the bath water as far as withholding rewards for behavior I don't want repeated. Just saying that I think there can be too much NILIF to the point of being OCD.
 
#37 ·
I mix and match my technique depending on the dog at hand.

My older dog was trained in the past (by my father) with a very heavy hand. So if you roar and rage, she becomes meek and in the past used to fear pee. I have worked her out of that, but there are times, where she KNOWS what I'm telling her to do, I have asked nicely, and there's a time and place to bring in the big guns, and in a big booming voice I will let her know. Works wonders for her.

For my new puppy, she is very forgiving, learns quickly, but does sometimes get way too into something, and ignoring doesn't work for her. She bites down on me too hard in play or excitement (I teach bite inhibition, where the moment they feel skin they do not bite, but only mouth, since I want to be able to mess around with and play with my dog's mouths, not have them fear my hand coming near it because of demanding no mouth contact at all), and I have quickly jerked my hand away and gave her a wack. It knocked her out of her overly excited state, she stood there for a moment, and then I encouraged her back to play. She's a very happy and flexible puppy, and took it all in stride, and since that time, she's been a lot more careful about the way she mouths me. Not out of fear, but out of "oh... that ended play time for a while". But had I just gotten up, or moved out of the way, or ignored her, like I have done before... she still sees that as a game. Not game over. So I used what worked with her.

I don't beat my animals, 99% of everything I do is verbal or using hand signals. However, I demand respect from my animals. I give puppies leeway, I am gentle and slow when they are learning, but once they know, and push the boundaries of respect, I will correct them.

For example... I have a horse. She is usually awesome at feeding time. Knows to give me space and wait until I have put her food away, and she's not allowed to rush it or me. We established this from the start. A new horse came in, started stealing some of her food (I quickly adjusted after the first day and they both get plenty), but a few days later, she became very pushy. Trying to grab hay out of my hands, pushing me over. She's 1400 lbs or so. I'm about 15% of her size. If she pushes me, it's dangerous. So while I am all for positive reinforcement training, I have used a whip on her to remind her that my space is my space, and I demand respect.

I have not used a whip on any dog (soft bouncing on their back in play doesn't count). Because they are not 1400 lbs. My life isn't in danger if they push me. However, if they are not listening to me, stuck on something, I will correct them, and physically. It's not abusing them... it's reminding them.

I'm firm. I'm not mean. I'm positive and upbeat... but if my animal is being rude or disrespectful, they will know.


Also, I adhere to the NILIF concept. It's not pack leader, it's not crazy "I rule the world"... it's making sure they know that what they want, they have to work for. And sometimes the only "work" that they do is being respectful and having manners. ;)
 
#38 ·
My girl used to bruise me up pretty heavily- My arms used to look Like I used heroin or was a domestic abuse victim. I'm so glad she has gotten better. And I never had to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her. Just some rules and some singing and a brother and she has become much more gentle. Thank you to everyone who responded. I'm sure I will post about her progress and about her new little brother!
 
#41 ·
The bruising mouthing happened in the first months we brought her home as a very wily, under socialized out of control teen. We have only had her for nine months and she is much improved. One of her triggers was our busy, dog dense neighborhood at our old house. We recently moved to an area near a forest with a bigger yard, and she no longer bruises me. The singing? I will say no and grab her collar so she can't mouth anymore. This causes her to roll over on her side and become deadweight because she refuses to go into a room for time out. If i try to drag her into the room she gets more amped. The singing happens the instant she stops and rolls over, and calms her down. Other methods I've used are no, sit, then tossing her ball when she sits, saying no, then giving her timeouts in the yard, because she will let go with sparkling eyes when I say outside, then stand pouting at the door when I then refuse to come out and play ball because she mouthed. Works like a charm. As for smacking dogs I saw a Michael Ellis video where he talks about what you are describing- he describes it as like a reset button?
 
#43 · (Edited)
The bruising mouthing happened in the first months we brought her home as a very wily, under socialized out of control teen. We have only had her for nine months and she is much improved. One of her triggers was our busy, dog dense neighborhood at our old house. We recently moved to an area near a forest with a bigger yard, and she no longer bruises me. The singing? I will say no and grab her collar so she can't mouth anymore. This causes her to roll over on her side and become deadweight because she refuses to go into a room for time out. If i try to drag her into the room she gets more amped.

I can't imagine ours viewing being put outdoors as a timeout :).

Have you considered leaving a leash on her? That way you can walk her to the room. This is what I do with ours for any time out. Just put a leash on him and walk him to his mat/ playpen. (Perhaps because I did so much loose leash walking at home with good treats, he follows me quite willingly on the leash even when he is being recalcitrant.)

With ours during his mouthing and jumping phase, he did get a lot of time outs in his crate or playpen, and although it was in the common area we completely ignored him then. So we could be doing his favorite activities, eating, playing with a ball or just sitting on the floor and chatting but we wouldn't even look at him. Some times 5 minutes, some times twenty or more, depending on his state of mind.

One other thing I worked on(and don't know if you did this with yours) is teaching 'gentle'. Started when he was in a calm state of mind. And now I can use it when he starts to mouth or is greeting children.
 
#46 ·
Yet another article relating wolf behavior to a domesticated dog.

A dog chewing on you out of redirected frustration is not the same as as aggressive dog or as a wolf, as the article is clearly referring to. Its about a lack of control and respect. A wolf wouldn't get excited by the busy street you live on and turn around to bruise you up, and if it did, you would end up in a hospital. And beating the crap out of an aggressive dog isn't going to make it trust you. That's just common sense. I also don't see how using techniques other than "purely positive" equates to manhandling or beating up a dog?

So no, I do not think this article has any relation to dog training at all. Wolves do not equal domesticated dogs. Period. But if someone would rather take the "gentle" approach by just letting their dog beat them up, then have at it.
 
#50 · (Edited)
I dont like to marry myself to any particular style of training with any dog. Get to know the dog first see what he responds to well and what he doesnt respond well to. How drivey is it for toys? For food? How does it respond to pressure? Can it take pressure and continue to work or does it supress and shut down? What brings it back up again? There are tons of things to consider each dog is different and you cant cookie cut training and expect great results over a large cross section of dogs. Not all dogs are going to respect or respond to the gentle approach for all instances of behaviors you need trained.
 
#82 ·
This.

Then there's the handler's abilities such as timing, consistency and ability to correct OR reward with the right speed and intensity. If the handler isn't consistent or quick enough no matter what method used it mucks up the results.

I would venture to say, though, based on speaking with folks who've been involved in bite sports a long time with dogs and having watched some of these dogs in person now, the 'not for the average dog owner' type dog (myself humbly included).....some of those dogs would steam roll the average Victoria Stillwell type trainer, me thinks.....
 
#53 ·
Right...for example, we noticed that Skadi mouths more when she is overstimulated, which tends to happen more on busy streets, so we figure she isn't ready for busy streets yet. She has not mouthed once on a forest walk in a month and now, if she starts getting bored or overstimulated on a walk, instead of mouthing, she will politely ask for her ball by sniffing your pocket. A definite improvement.
 
#55 ·
Read that second article you shared... and I'm kinda flabbergasted. She mentions using an "eh-eh" sound and staring at a dog as being harsh. Necessary, but harsh. ??? I use my voice all the time with my dogs. For praise as well as correction (I do not scream at my animals, I use sounds, like a "ch" or "eh" or similar to stop them doing something). But any kind of correction whether verbal or physical is harsh??? This I have a problem with.

I get the whole anti-spanking thing, and I do agree with it... for the most part. But for that to actually work, boundaries still need to be enforced. If a kid directly disobeys you and gets another cookie... you can't just say "ok... we're going to time out now billy" and when he collapses and refuses to move, all singing will do is reinforce that bad behavior of refusing to come with you. And so they never actually learn that disobeying you (or the law) is a bad thing... because you never enforced the rules you gave.

Your dog probably used you as a chew toy because of stress... and there's less stress in the new place, so less need to chew. What happens if you take her back into a high stress area? Not high danger, just high stress. The outside of a dog park. The city square, etc. I am just not convinced right now that she knows not to bite... and that just seems like an accident waiting to happen.


There's positive training... and then there's making your child/dog live their lives without any consequences. Consequences can be VERY few and far between. But at the same time... need to be established once the dog understands what you're asking.
 
#56 ·
The prong and correction on a busy street? Umm... no. Your dog is not at that point since she mouths every time she's in a busy area, and while prongs are great tools, I personally don't ever use them, and for most dogs, don't see the need to. That's where I reinforce good calm behavior, and slowly introduce stimuli. She starts having problems, don't take away the stimuli, but continue working on it. Make her do things for you. Make her learn that she needs to ignore things.

The biggest part of this is to go SLOWLY. You can't just go straight from a forest to a New York city highway.

BUT... I wouldn't just stay in the forest. My dogs live my life with me. While I would never push a dog too out of their comfort zone (little bits at a time work wonders for confidence), and would never punish fear, I do expect my dogs to adapt to my life. Not me to theirs.
 
#57 ·
The prong thing was an example. I think when she has had two months without mouthing in the forest we will test her a bit. Something we also do is step on the leash if she starts, something our behaviorist told us to do. :)
 
#58 · (Edited)
Yes - Serbrider .

I don't have the land sharky stage - I am not a chew toy .
Ending that mouthing behaviour on yourself does not impact on bite inhibition in sport or real situations .

The correction is quick and decisive , over in a moment .

Someone in another thread said the mother dog will gently pull the offending pup away. What ? A lightning quick , clear message , snap is more like it , and then carry on without any residual mood or feelings.

The Nicole Wilde -- I have the Wolfdogs A-Z --- and have browsed through another . Nothing really great .
 
#62 ·
yes blanket back , the dog is not learning how to resolve the problem so goes into learned helplessness . A correction shows the right way , not a penalty or punishment .
You want to use raising children. Babies will grab hair , bop , head smack , bite your chin , smack your face -- you tell them no , don't do this -- you don't banish them to their crib till they understand (connection not made) and you don't punish them - you show them what is appropriate and how you want and need to be treated. You make them civilized.
Dogs living in civilization need to be civilized . They can't be wild free agents .

Pretty much what Sebrider has said on this thread can be moved over to the early socialization thread.

You show the pup what you want and expect right from the start. You don't provide something producing an expectation and then take it away .
 
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