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-   -   Lure and? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/418289-lure.html)

Charles T Richard 03-02-2014 12:37 AM

Lure and?
 
Hi,
I know what it is to lure a dog into a position and then reward him with a treat.

I read somewhere else and can't find it, where you wait for the dog to do its thing and the reward him. It's called free something.

Can somebody help me with the phrase, principle and how it works? Thank you in advance.

Baillif 03-02-2014 12:40 AM

It's called free shaping. Pretty much works as you said. You wait for the dog to do the behavior you mark and reward when it does. The dog does the behavior more often as a result and at some point figures out what it was being rewarded for and you have a strong behavior because the dog figured it out on its own. Problem is it can take a long long time vs luring plus you have less control over exactly what the final product looks like.

Charles T Richard 03-02-2014 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baillif (Post 5119585)
It's called free shaping. Pretty much works as you said. You wait for the dog to do the behavior you mark and reward when it does. The dog does the behavior more often as a result and at some point figures out what it was being rewarded for and you have a strong behavior because the dog figured it out on its own. Problem is it can take a long long time vs luring.

It seems a might take a long time, like you say. Is one better than the other. Is free shaping better for some reason? How do you get them to (just for example) run away from you and lay down this way?

DJEtzel 03-02-2014 12:44 AM

Free shaping! Really quite simple. You wait for the dog to offer something, very insignificant at first, even if it's by accident, towards the ultimate goal. You mark/treat and wait for just a little higher of criteria next, etc. etc. until the dog is doing the thing you want.

For easy of imagination, if I wanted my dog to go to the front door and stand there next to it, I would first click/treat for a glance or step (whichever he happened to offer first) towards the door. Then I'd click/treat for a step, or numerous steps towards the door. Etc. etc. until I'm clicking for standing against the door. I just raise my criteria between each reward towards the ultimate goal.

eta; A lot of people like free shaping more because you don't have to fade the lure and it's harder on the dog's brain, resulting in more mental work/making them more tired. It's also fun to have a dog that is actively engaged in trying to learn for you/the reward and watching the gears turn so that they are more of a "thinking" dog instead of a dog following your cues. They learn to problem solve, basically, which is intriguing.

Charles T Richard 03-02-2014 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJEtzel (Post 5119609)
Free shaping! Really quite simple. You wait for the dog to offer something, very insignificant at first, even if it's by accident, towards the ultimate goal. You mark/treat and wait for just a little higher of criteria next, etc. etc. until the dog is doing the thing you want.

For easy of imagination, if I wanted my dog to go to the front door and stand there next to it, I would first click/treat for a glance or step (whichever he happened to offer first) towards the door. Then I'd click/treat for a step, or numerous steps towards the door. Etc. etc. until I'm clicking for standing against the door. I just raise my criteria between each reward towards the ultimate goal.

eta; A lot of people like free shaping more because you don't have to fade the lure and it's harder on the dog's brain, resulting in more mental work/making them more tired. It's also fun to have a dog that is actively engaged in trying to learn for you/the reward and watching the gears turn so that they are more of a "thinking" dog instead of a dog following your cues. They learn to problem solve, basically, which is intriguing.

I can understand that. I did watch some video today. They act like its easy. But, is one better than the other? Lure or FS? Will one hurt my dog? That's important to me.

DJEtzel 03-02-2014 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles T Richard (Post 5119633)
I can understand that. I did watch some video today. They act like its easy. But, is one better than the other? Lure or FS? Will one hurt my dog? That's important to me.

Neither is better than the other. Neither will hurt your dog. They're both fine to use, some people use one or the other depending on the situation and how easy/hard something might be to shape.

Free shaping is just more fun for some, and more of a challenge.

I use both, personally.

Charles T Richard 03-02-2014 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJEtzel (Post 5119641)
Neither is better than the other. Neither will hurt your dog. They're both fine to use, some people use one or the other depending on the situation and how easy/hard something might be to shape.

Free shaping is just more fun for some, and more of a challenge.

I use both, personally.

Thank you for clearing that up. If neither hurts your dog, I will use what I know in the beginning for the basics. Lure. Thank you.


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