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-   -   Trainers thoughts on how extinction of behavior is achieved. (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/416834-trainers-thoughts-how-extinction-behavior-achieved.html)

DaniFani 02-26-2014 06:08 PM

Trainers thoughts on how extinction of behavior is achieved.
 
Toward a Less Coercive World Via Skinnerian Ideology | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training

Thought this was interesting. I found it from a friend posting about some of the stricter laws countries are adopting towards dog training tools. Thought some of you might enjoy it.

shepherdmom 02-26-2014 06:55 PM

Interesting. Thanks for posting! :)

Baillif 02-26-2014 07:02 PM

Punishment is necessary sometimes is the tldr

Sri 02-26-2014 08:21 PM

I don't have any argument with the conclusion. But I wonder if punishment is enough to halt an instinctive behavior. From my observation, there is always an outlet in other ways if one instinct is suppressed. In humans, there is the intelligence and enough self awareness to understand what is a weakness in ouselves and have the desire to change it, and that I think is the biggest factor in helping us transform even instinctual behavior.

Also I wonder if the Orca anticipated a reward at that moment, a fish dangling from the trainer perhaps and just closed in on the arm. Not minimising the horror of what happened, but the perils of dealing with wild animals are just that they are wild and act on their instinct, even in captivity.

All the more reason for good breeding practices in our canines.

DaniFani 02-26-2014 08:38 PM

But everything we train dogs not to do is "instinct" everything a dog does, is instinct.... Barking, chewing, jumping, biting, growling, etc.... We train all these things to stop... So I'd say yes, training is enough to curb instinct.

Sri 02-27-2014 03:47 AM

I dont know if we can compare dogs and animals raised in captivity? Dogs seem to have evolved into being biddable by man, atleast to a good extent. In general, even strays, if thrown them a piece of food become attached, loyal and biddable. They want to please anyone who takes care of them. For their own survival of course They seem to have a good amount of self restraint and intelligence. A lot of people have achieved these results ( curbing ithese instinctive behaviors) using just positive methods too.


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David Winners 02-27-2014 06:18 AM

With the right dog, you can achieve great obedience with little aversives.

Tell me how you would train an aggressive dog to not aggress if the act of being aggressive is more important and self rewarding to the dog than any treat, toy or praise you have. Purely positive training falls apart when you introduce competing motivators.

David Winners 02-27-2014 06:23 AM

I disagree that all things are instinctual. They may be natural behaviors but their context can be learned. Changing the context in which a dog barks is different than extinguishing the behavior. Changing how the dog views a stranger is different than extinguishing the behavior of lunging at them.

There are multiple ways to change behavior in dogs, and replacement sometimes works better then aversives. This concept is dependent on having a reward that outweighs the self rewarding nature of a behavior.


Quote:

Originally Posted by DaniFani (Post 5097626)
But everything we train dogs not to do is "instinct" everything a dog does, is instinct.... Barking, chewing, jumping, biting, growling, etc.... We train all these things to stop... So I'd say yes, training is enough to curb instinct.


Sri 02-27-2014 06:30 AM

Oh i am not refuting that. I recently started using the prong to interrupt mine focusing on other dogs.

I was talking about the article and wondering if we can really compare wild animals in captivity to our pets. And if aversives can completely erase an animal 's instincts. Dogs I believe were bred for generations and evolved to work for man.


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