What do you think of the new BAT 2.0? - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Increase font size: 0, 10, 25, 50%

GermanShepherds.com is the premier German Shepherd Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-18-2014, 04:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
Master Member
 
Kaimeju's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Washington
Posts: 643
Default What do you think of the new BAT 2.0?

New! BAT 2.0 Information | Empowered Animals

I feel like this is a step backwards. The old protocols were helpful for marking and reinforcing disengagement. I don't see how this would work for a dog that doesn't find disengaging inherently rewarding.
__________________
Gypsy Rose Lee
Kaimeju is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-05-2014, 01:23 AM   #2 (permalink)
Moderator
 
David Winners's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2,044
Default

I missed this when you posted it.

I just read the whole site and handouts and it's kind of silly to put a name on this. BAT 2.0, not really. It seems that the original system wasn't working well so it got revamped into standard, below threshold walking. This will work well for aggressive or fearful dogs, where the original was not good for aggressive dogs at all. The thing that kind of makes me laugh is that it's not really a training system at all, it's just good dog handling. If you read all the handouts, the options you have are huge. Rewards can be anything. You just feel your way along and try and do the right thing. That's not a system in my eyes. It can work, but trainers do it all the time naturally. I don't see how someone can put a label on walking under threshold on a long line and claim it as their system.


BAT, in it's original form was a good tool for fearful dogs when distance from the trigger will act as a functional reward. It was terrible for aggression though. I have helped a few people through serious issues that worsened because they were empowering the wrong dog to make the wrong decisions by following BAT principles.

I kind of think it's someone trying to make money off something that any good trainer can show a student in a session or 2.
__________________
When a dog saves the life of a man, it becomes clear that partnership knows no bounds.

Fama - T.E.D.D. OEF XI-XII (GSD)(RET... )
Marshall - T.E.D.D. OEF XII-XIII (Lab)(SF EDD)
Lucian - Med Alert (Cane Corso)
Pud - the old man (Pit x Lab)
David Winners is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2014, 07:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
Knighted Member
 
Baillif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,483
Default

The same way the cross fit people tried to copyright exercising.
Baillif is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2014, 10:32 AM   #4 (permalink)
Master Member
 
Kaimeju's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Washington
Posts: 643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I don't see how someone can put a label on walking under threshold on a long line and claim it as their system.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
BAT, in it's original form was a good tool for fearful dogs when distance from the trigger will act as a functional reward. It was terrible for aggression though. I have helped a few people through serious issues that worsened because they were empowering the wrong dog to make the wrong decisions by following BAT principles.
Could you go into more detail about how the aggressive dogs reacted? I'm curious if it mirrors my own experience at all. I used to do a lot of BAT with my dog, but found that it was actually reinforcing her to pay more attention to the trigger and not to me. We eventually just started doing normal obedience and focus work with a lot of emphasis on watching her threshold.
__________________
Gypsy Rose Lee
Kaimeju is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2014, 07:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
Moderator
 
David Winners's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2,044
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaimeju View Post
Exactly.



Could you go into more detail about how the aggressive dogs reacted? I'm curious if it mirrors my own experience at all. I used to do a lot of BAT with my dog, but found that it was actually reinforcing her to pay more attention to the trigger and not to me. We eventually just started doing normal obedience and focus work with a lot of emphasis on watching her threshold.
No focus on handler. Locked on to target, aggressive behavior increasing. Threshold lowering because of self rewarding behavior. Because the training is aversive free, there were no consequences for the dog not making the right decision. Basically, everything got worse.

I find it much more effective to train and proof a behavior, like heel or watch, and then work with these behaviors outside threshold. If the dog does it right, you reward. If it blows you off, you can correct the dog for refusing a proofed behavior.

Even better yet, for aggressive dogs, is the Lou Castle crittering protocol. I believe this changes how the dog views the situation and encourages good decisions, along with adding control. It's not for everyone. It involves an e-collar which some feel is not appropriate.

David Winners
__________________
When a dog saves the life of a man, it becomes clear that partnership knows no bounds.

Fama - T.E.D.D. OEF XI-XII (GSD)(RET... )
Marshall - T.E.D.D. OEF XII-XIII (Lab)(SF EDD)
Lucian - Med Alert (Cane Corso)
Pud - the old man (Pit x Lab)
David Winners is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:21 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com