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-   -   What do you think of the new BAT 2.0? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/412858-what-do-you-think-new-bat-2-0-a.html)

Kaimeju 02-18-2014 04:23 PM

What do you think of the new BAT 2.0?
 
New! BAT 2.0 Information | Empowered Animals

I feel like this is a step backwards. The old protocols were helpful for marking and reinforcing disengagement. I don't see how this would work for a dog that doesn't find disengaging inherently rewarding.

David Winners 04-05-2014 01:23 AM

I missed this when you posted it.

I just read the whole site and handouts and it's kind of silly to put a name on this. BAT 2.0, not really. It seems that the original system wasn't working well so it got revamped into standard, below threshold walking. This will work well for aggressive or fearful dogs, where the original was not good for aggressive dogs at all. The thing that kind of makes me laugh is that it's not really a training system at all, it's just good dog handling. If you read all the handouts, the options you have are huge. Rewards can be anything. You just feel your way along and try and do the right thing. That's not a system in my eyes. It can work, but trainers do it all the time naturally. I don't see how someone can put a label on walking under threshold on a long line and claim it as their system.


BAT, in it's original form was a good tool for fearful dogs when distance from the trigger will act as a functional reward. It was terrible for aggression though. I have helped a few people through serious issues that worsened because they were empowering the wrong dog to make the wrong decisions by following BAT principles.

I kind of think it's someone trying to make money off something that any good trainer can show a student in a session or 2.

Baillif 04-05-2014 07:02 AM

The same way the cross fit people tried to copyright exercising.

Kaimeju 04-05-2014 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Winners (Post 5328153)
I don't see how someone can put a label on walking under threshold on a long line and claim it as their system.

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Winners (Post 5328153)
BAT, in it's original form was a good tool for fearful dogs when distance from the trigger will act as a functional reward. It was terrible for aggression though. I have helped a few people through serious issues that worsened because they were empowering the wrong dog to make the wrong decisions by following BAT principles.

Could you go into more detail about how the aggressive dogs reacted? I'm curious if it mirrors my own experience at all. I used to do a lot of BAT with my dog, but found that it was actually reinforcing her to pay more attention to the trigger and not to me. We eventually just started doing normal obedience and focus work with a lot of emphasis on watching her threshold.

David Winners 04-05-2014 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimeju (Post 5328881)
Exactly.



Could you go into more detail about how the aggressive dogs reacted? I'm curious if it mirrors my own experience at all. I used to do a lot of BAT with my dog, but found that it was actually reinforcing her to pay more attention to the trigger and not to me. We eventually just started doing normal obedience and focus work with a lot of emphasis on watching her threshold.

No focus on handler. Locked on to target, aggressive behavior increasing. Threshold lowering because of self rewarding behavior. Because the training is aversive free, there were no consequences for the dog not making the right decision. Basically, everything got worse.

I find it much more effective to train and proof a behavior, like heel or watch, and then work with these behaviors outside threshold. If the dog does it right, you reward. If it blows you off, you can correct the dog for refusing a proofed behavior.

Even better yet, for aggressive dogs, is the Lou Castle crittering protocol. I believe this changes how the dog views the situation and encourages good decisions, along with adding control. It's not for everyone. It involves an e-collar which some feel is not appropriate.

David Winners


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