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-   -   E-collar using Lou Castle's methods (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/410226-e-collar-using-lou-castles-methods.html)

dpc134 02-12-2014 03:11 PM

E-collar using Lou Castle's methods
 
I have a question regarding Lou Castle's e-collar training. I read through all of his training instructions on his website and I think his methods are very well written and will work well.
However, I am a little confused on how to use this type of e-collar training with a dog that already knows and understands the commands. Since Lou is explaining how to teach "recall, sit, down" using the e-collar, how do I use it to reinforce the commands on a dog that already knows "recall, sit, down"?
Also, is the e-collar ever used as a positive punishment tool to reinforce / correct the dog if he/she disobeys a command (after the command is learned)?

David Winners 02-12-2014 04:01 PM

I would PM Lou. He is active on this forum.

Deno 02-12-2014 09:51 PM

I am not sure what Lou would say about this, but to me it's just common sense.

I used the e-collar to tweak the response time to known commands.

Dex knows to come the second I call him no matter what, same thing with sit, down, stay and no.

With recall, It was just a matter of giving him a little shock if he hesitated coming when called.

Same thing with everything else, he knows if i say no he better stop WHATEVER he is doing that instant.

It was the same thing with stay. I would hide and watch him and if he moved I gave him a little tingle.

Dex was made sharp as a razor in every area in no time flat with very few corrections.

I stopped him from chasing my motor cycle and getting in the garbage with about 2 corrections each.

I can't remember the last time Dex had the collar on, if he ever needs any kind of a refresher course all I have to do is show him the transmitter.

The e-collar is an amazing tool whose main enemy is ignorance.

I had to rant.

Short and simple answer to your question is, if he ignores a known command you zap him.

It won't take many and the results are amazing.







http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...9P-2bUYbWS.png

David Winners 02-12-2014 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deno (Post 5013058)
I am not sure what Lou would say about this, but to me it's just common sense.

I used the e-collar to tweak the response time to known commands.

Dex knows to come the second I call him no matter what, same thing with sit, down, stay and no.

With recall, It was just a matter of giving him a little shock if he hesitated coming when called.

Same thing with everything else, he knows if i say no he better stop WHATEVER he is doing that instant.

It was the same thing with stay. I would hide and watch him and if he moved I gave him a little tingle.

Dex was made sharp as a razor in every area in no time flat with very few corrections.

I stopped him from chasing my motor cycle and getting in the garbage with about 2 corrections each.

I can't remember the last time Dex had the collar on, if he ever needs any kind of a refresher course all I have to do is show him the transmitter.

The e-collar is an amazing tool whose main enemy is ignorance.

I had to rant.

Short and simple answer to your question is, if he ignores a known command you zap him.

It won't take many and the results are amazing.







http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...9P-2bUYbWS.png

This is not the same protocol as Lou Castle. Common sense and operant conditioning are not the same in a complex scenario. You skipped finding a working level for the dog, teaching the dog how to turn the collar off, and invited the chance for superstitious associations. These are all important parts of Lou's training methods.

Your methods have worked for you with one dog. Lou has trained hundreds. If you don't understand his methods, I would refrain from giving advice on them. Training with his system from the start avoids certain problems that may develop with improper stimulation.

To the OP.

The information you are after is on the web site. Start with finding the dogs working level and then read the recall page carefully. I can post the sections here that pertain to your question when I get back to my computer. I still think you should just pm Lou. He will answer all your questions in detail.

David Winners

llombardo 02-12-2014 11:25 PM

I had a nice conversation with Lou about my dog when I first got him. He spent a good amount of time on the phone with me. He was more then willing to explain things.

David Winners 02-12-2014 11:41 PM

From Teaching the Recall on the Lou Castle web site.

Quote:

Many people will be working with dogs that already know the recall, some of them quite well. They're going to the Ecollar for reliability, or because they're having problems with the recall working well at a distance, or in the face of high level distractions. My recommendation is to teach the recall with the Ecollar, as if the dog had never received any training at all, by using the following protocol. It's not that you're teaching the recall to those dogs, it's that you're teaching the dog what the stim means, and that the dog is in charge of when it starts, and, most importantly, when it stops.

In looking through the forum on his site, the standard answer for working with a previously trained dog is to follow the steps in the protocol as they are written. It eliminates confusion in the dog.

boomer11 02-13-2014 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deno (Post 5013058)
I am not sure what Lou would say about this, but to me it's just common sense.

I used the e-collar to tweak the response time to known commands.

Dex knows to come the second I call him no matter what, same thing with sit, down, stay and no.

With recall, It was just a matter of giving him a little shock if he hesitated coming when called.

Same thing with everything else, he knows if i say no he better stop WHATEVER he is doing that instant.
U
It was the same thing with stay. I would hide and watch him and if he moved I gave him a little tingle.

Dex was made sharp as a razor in every area in no time flat with very few corrections.

I stopped him from chasing my motor cycle and getting in the garbage with about 2 corrections each.

I can't remember the last time Dex had the collar on, if he ever needs any kind of a refresher course all I have to do is show him the transmitter.

The e-collar is an amazing tool whose main enemy is ignorance.

I had to rant.

Short and simple answer to your question is, if he ignores a known command you zap him.

It won't take many and the results are amazing.







http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...9P-2bUYbWS.png

Lol this is nothing like Lou castles method. You are using the collar as a tool for punishing the dog for not listening. This is the same "ignorant" thinking that gives ecollars a bad name and ruins dogs. So you're right, the main enemy is ignorance :)

dpc134 02-13-2014 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Winners (Post 5013714)
From Teaching the Recall on the Lou Castle web site.




In looking through the forum on his site, the standard answer for working with a previously trained dog is to follow the steps in the protocol as they are written. It eliminates confusion in the dog.

Dave,
Thanks for the help. I did see the protocols for using his methods on a trained dog, but I was confused as to "why", instead of just reinforcing the commands by using the e-collar when the dog doesnt comply (like what Deno was saying). I understand that there is more to dog training than just common sense, so I always ask "why".
So I did PM Lou, and he responded with "Start as if the dog knew nothing and work through the protocols exactly as they're written. Think of the Ecollar as a new language. You have to teach the dog what everything means." The dog needs to understand how to turn off the e-collar and get accustomed to how it works. I am going to follow Lou's advice and follows his protocols as written on his website.

Thanks again!

Deno 02-13-2014 09:04 PM

LOL, your reading comprehension is not all that, ignorance is bliss.

My "ignorant" thinking has resulted in a dog that does what I tell him 99.9 % of the time under extreme conditions.

It's hard to argue with success, but knock yourself out.

Without knowing anything about you, I would wager my dog is better trained than yours.

jocoyn 02-13-2014 09:09 PM

Well, 99.9% compliance may be great for some dogs but for a working dog you want a certain amount of ability for the dog to work without 100% direction. Maybe there are different goals. I have been very hesitant with ecollars because I have seem some dogs who were more like robots.

I don't know enough about ecollar training to play into a discussion other than knowing Lou seems to help anyone and everyone who calls him and makes his methods known freely (no big secret you need to pay out the nose to join the club) but have seen enough to know that too heavy handed can result in a dog that has become too focused and too handler dependent.


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