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-   -   E Collars. (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/393586-e-collars.html)

halo2013 01-09-2014 02:02 PM

E Collars.
 
Okay. Apparently everyone is against using e-collars as a training tool. I can understand why. Put an e-collar in the wrong hands and its like handing a loaded weapon to convicted killer.

But why is everyone so against them? Does one think they are in humane? Or do people just not understand how they work and like most of america judge a book by the cover.

I've watched some amazing dogs be put to sleep because of people who judge things before they understood them. One dog in particular stands out.

:( his name was Tye and he was a great Dane mix. Coming from an extensive abusive life style he was a smoking gun for anything that tried to touch him. Drs.put him on dog stabilizers but still he had a bad aggression toward dogs. One day another dog and him had gotten in a fight and the lady that tried breaking the fight up got bit up pretty bad. The responded well to an e collar but she thought not was to in humane to use that as a training tool for her dog. Yet letting him walk around with a Hannibal Lector style muzzle all day was super humane. I remember when she brought The into the office its like he knew he was there to die. He just put little doggy brakes on refused to walk into the office. In my heart I knew it wasn't fair to Tye but professionally it wasn't my choice. My job was to prepare tye to die. I remember sitting with him the owner didn't stay with him she left. I sat there til his last breath. has she just used what the knew and responded to in steady of judging it then the wouldn't have had to be put down.

So I kindly got permission from some people in the past and voice recorded their views on e collars. And everyone that thinks I'm some uneducated person because I use them as a training tool I find you no better then tyes death angel.his owner who was his death row.

1.) Pro in some cases. I have already seen a couple of cases, when the person had a really aggressive dog and couldn't handle them. In some cases an e-collar is a safer way to control a dog then a person getting mauled. I remember one when the guy absolutely refused to use it because it was inhumane, then a week later had to put the dog down. That's more humane?

I also see it useful in long distance training in some cases. I'm not against it completely. If used correctly. I use a above ground electric fence - and will use an underground one. My horses are in an electric fence. I've been shocked TONS of times. It doesn't "hurt" so much as startle. DH put a good e-collar on once and shocked himself. It's not as bad as some corrections people use.

Unless someone is using it as the only training tool and relying only on the e-collar because they are lazy and never put the appropriate time into training there dog then I don't see the big deal about it. I have no problems with people who use them correctly.



2.) I do like the ecollar and it has so many uses.

What "type" of e-collar would you use? Multi-level? Remote? Bark? Why?
I will only use remote collars because that way the stimulus is coming from me. I will not say correction as it isn't always a correction(examples to come). And the only brands I will use are Tritronics and Dogtra.

How would you describe the way this collar works? This collar is nothing more than a tool just as a prong, choke collar, head halter, or any other device is used.

How do you USE an e-collar?
I use an ecollar in many different instances, mostly for distance stuff. It is an extension of my arm LOL. If we are out at a park it allows my dogs the freedom to wander and be a bit aways and I know I still have control for any noncompliance I may get(if I get it). Of course, before I can use it in that sense the dog needs to know a) what the ecollar is and b) that the dog knows exactly what it is supposed to be doing. If I say come, dog better come because it knows it. I would NEVER use it for training, just enforcing.

I also use the vibration for attention if they cannot hear me. For example, if we are in the woods and they are a little a way and I hear thunder I can "page" my dogs and they know to get by my side. I don't have to yell.

It is also great for deaf dogs. You can use the vibration to get their attention and look at you so you can give them a hand signal.

Great for training for aggression (oh no you didn't). LOL Yes, and I don't mean they get corrected for acting aggressive. It goes back to compliance. You start looking and acting aggressive toward another dog(dog gets zoned in on other dog), I say come. Dog doesn't come. I now have reason to correct, dog did not heed my come command.

In some cases, I have also seen them used for a handicapped person. A person who does not have the balance or strength to hold a leash or balance when a dog pulls. It gives that person even in a wheelchair, the ability to still be able to exercise their dogs and have control on their dogs. Again, there is still training involved.

How do you *phase out* an e-collar?
I don't. My dogs see an ecollar and they know it means park time. Woohoo, we get to go run around. Will my dogs listen without it, absolutely but as I said before having it on allows me to allow them to get out of ear range and I don't have to scream across the park for them to hear me.

They are a tool like anything else and CAN be used incorrectly just as anything else. Too many people do abuse it however. For example they THINK they know how to use it and stick it on a dog and "zap" for barking or not coming or something. You can never just stick it on a dog and expect it to work. There is training involved. It is not used to train a behavior, simply enforce it.

Generally people who believe that an ecollar is abusive or painful don't have first clue about how to use one. A dog that becomes fearful of the collar was not trained correctly in one. And that is the trainers fault. Heck, I could get my dog to hate a nylon collar if I abused him with it too. It is in the training. It isn't magical. It is simply a tool.


I once saw a quote about one- If you are not capable of training a dog without an ecollar, then you have no right to train with one.
Learn from other's mistakes. You will not be alive long enough to make them all on your own

3.) What about e-collars do you see negatively?
My biggest issue with e-collars is that any dummy off the street can walk in to walmart or the local feed-n-seed, buy an e-collar, and slap it on the dog and start zapping away. And sadly, I see that a lot. Rehabbing a dog from this kind of treatment is not as much fun as you would think.

I would like to see e-collars only available through professionals who would school people in how to use them humanely. Granted that won't stop the frustrated or just plain sadistic owner from mis-using them, but it will help the ignorant ones.


** We have a 1000 word limit. I left a bit over 1300. If you want to include more in another post you are welcome to, but stick to only 1000 words or less. Thank you. ADMIN**

DaniFani 01-09-2014 02:04 PM

"Everyone is against using them as training tools" is an incorrect statement. Lots of trainers and handler/dog teams use them.

halo2013 01-09-2014 02:07 PM

Yes I know this I am a dog trainer. Who just pissed a whole forum.off because I mentioned the use of it

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boomer11 01-09-2014 02:12 PM

Lol I'm not even going to read that. Can't you get your point across in one paragraph? A lot of people here use an ecollar (me included) . They just don't use it on a dog with fear aggression. People jumped on you because you gave advice to use it on a fear reactive dog which is incredibly stupid advice.

LoveEcho 01-09-2014 02:14 PM

People are against using an e-collar on a puppy to "correct" fearful behavior. Not even remotely the same thing.

DJEtzel 01-09-2014 02:14 PM

I didn't read your entire post. I stopped after the first two paragraphs.

I love shock collars as a training tool and have used them for some very rough cases. I hate your views on them, though, and do not think you use them safely whatsoever and would never trust someone with your views to train a dog.

DaniFani 01-09-2014 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2013 (Post 4801770)
Yes I know this I am a dog trainer. Who just pissed a whole forum.off because I mentioned the use of it

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Lol, who's mad? The only one that's mad so far is you. I understand, I've been on your end of this debate, it's frustrating and angering. I just don't think it's a huge fight worth picking. Everyone will train the way they train, if people ask me about ecollars I try and educate why/how/when they are used in our program (if they're used).

I personally like the idea behind them even better than the pinch because it removes the connection of the negative to the trainer/handler, and can result in conflict-free training as well as crystal clear instructions to the dog. There are, of course, down sides like any other tool. I just am tired of this debate, it's usually the fanatics that start slinging crazy dog abuse/lack of experience/inability to connect enough with the dog resulting in "need" for the ecollar-type allegations....and neither I nor you are going to convince those personalities that an ecollar isn't the evil "electric bolt/shock/electrocuting" (whatever other fear inducing buzz word is currently being used) abuse device they claim it to be.

LoveEcho 01-09-2014 02:17 PM

I hope Lou Castle comes on here and teaches you how to use one correctly...

DaniFani 01-09-2014 02:17 PM

Hmmmm, I also didn't read your entire post, just got the general gist of it....and apparently I am missing something here and need to read OP's previous posts....

DaniFani 01-09-2014 02:20 PM

OP, sorry.....anyone can say they are a trainer, and I've seen more terrible trainers/handlers than I have seen good ones in the short amount of time I've been heavily involved in the sport world (especially on the pet trainer side of things)....so it really means zip to me when someone says they are a trainer. Like that's some golden ticket that means no one should question their methods or theories.

ETA: Here's Lou Castle's website. Maybe it'll help you out a little.

http://www.loucastle.com/crittering


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