The Cesar thing is a whole can of worms, he has a lot of supporters but many people seem to forget that this is television.

I'm personally not a fan, because despite "Don't try this at home"... people do. And they do it a lot, and it presents dangerous scenarios at times.

I like that he's a supporter of exercise and I do think he cares for the dogs.

I find that really does not have a good understanding of dog behavior or body language. (Such as "panting" being a sign of a "Calm submissive" dog, when that is an indicator of stress if the dog is not hot or active prior.)

Studies have shown dogs are not as strong of pack animals as many believe, the do indeed form packs, but they are very loose knit and dogs come and go. Here's a good link explaining the scientific definition of dominance.
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

More information on Alpha Theory
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

This page goes through a whole slew of reasons some are not fans.
Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers

 

I was surprised that Ceaser tried to commit suicide?

 

Ceaser, and that video in particular, has been beaten to death in several threads on here.

Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for cesar milan

You can peruse through all those threads if you like. Also, from your previous posts I understand that you are very strongly, emotional, when it comes to dogs. I disagree that dogs are on the same level as humans, but I don't think that you need to go to the opposite extreme and say they are sub-servants to us....just a balance of below humans, but obviously deserving of respect and care because they are at the whim of human interactions, development, and industrialization. However, I would never say they are equal to humans, but to each their own.

 

Humans are above dogs cause why? We make stuff give shelter and such but there is way more to that than better or equal. Dogs and other species know more of them and us than we do them. humans are a disgrace so rotten to innocent creatures and show very little understanding and more misconceptions towards them. Dogs are beings if you say owner call a parent an owner of a child adopted or birth. Many vegans like me are offended to saying owner pet below than us. Ever heard no one is inferior to anyone? Animals are humans just furry we humans are furless animals. That goes for all beings. Animals attack a human is cause human was stupid and deserves it.

 

I dont agree with all of his methods, but I have to say he has helped me alot with my GSD. Mostly helping me realize when I was getting tense and how it goes to the dog and how to relax after giving a correction and walk with confidence. That actually just made a huge difference for me and my dog. Just watching his show and him telling the people when to relax and be calm but assertive. Cesar doesnt hit the dog he touches them which he no different than us poping the dogs collar.

 

"I noticed Cesar millan hitting dogs like something to do with water bowl dog food Labrador aggression. He hit her several times in the episode. I noticed yanks on leashes and force."

Yeah, I am not a fan of Cesar's either, but he does have quite a following and is a self-made man.

"His Alpha thing bothers me i don't believe that no more."

The whole alpha - pack garbage, may have some grains of truth somewhere, but it is so over-done, over-used, that I think it causes way more problems than it helps.

"He seems to think of dogs as property too. Dog terms like owner pets etc. hate the property terms dogs are not objects living beings."

Well, they are property in the eyes of the law. Sorry, but that is true, and I hope that it continues to be true. I am my pet's owner, I am, therefore responsible for their behavior, their condition, their training, damages caused by them, etc. And this is true until the dog dies, is put down, or I give or sell him to a new owner. He is not going to grow up and move out on his own at any point. He is and will always be totally dependent on me unless his ownership transfers to another responsible party.

"No lesser than humans we have all same feelings all beings pain and strive for love. I hate brags about humans being better than all other species superior. No one is inferior to anyone."

While dogs have emotions and can feel pain, and can bond with people or other dogs, they are not humans. There are some significant differences that can get us in trouble if we equate dogs to humans. First and foremost, a human leaves behind a family, friends, people at work, people at church, pets etc, some of whom he is responsible to caring for. For this reason, if it comes between saving the life of any of my dogs, and any human being, I will miss my dog very, very much, and grieve for her, but I will save the human if at all possible.

I don't see it that humans are so much better than other species, but dogs are not moral beings. They can love to an extent, they can choose to obey you, but they do not make decisions based on how their action will effect other beings. Humans can do this. Dogs do not. Expecting a dog to hold to a moral code that we adopt is really unfair to the dog. We in fact, have to ensure that our dog's behavior is appropriate and prevent anything that we do not want our dog to do by protecting the dog, and being present, correcting the dog, etc.

A human being will be at some point responsible for a job, for a home, for a family, etc. A dog is never responsible for anyone. We are responsible for them and this is not going to change, no matter how much we train or trust them. We cannot let them make their own decisions because we are responsible for the consequences of those decisions.

"Dogs are my companions comrades best friends like other humans. I'm the guardian caretaker of dogs or best friends."

My dogs are my companions, my comrads, my best friends as well. But I am not their guardian, I am their owner, and that means that I am their caretaker. The whole guradian terminology comes from the animal rights movement, and it is actually very scary. Understand that the animal rights movement and the animal welfare movement are not one in the same. The individuals and organizations behind the Animal Rights Movement, like PETA, really do not like the idea of animal ownership at all. Which means, that if they do not like that you own a dog, they would like to be able to hire an attourney for your dog and take you to court to transfer the guardianship of your dog to a more appropriate entity. This is kind of the road this movement is going down. These people are as crazy as this sounds paranoid. If they feel your dog should have a larger yard to romp in, they can fight for a court to award someone else guardianship of your dog.

The Animal Welfare movements wants to ensure that people are not neglecting or abusing animals. I am all for that. And if people break laws, they may try to have a dog removed from the ownership of an individual -- that is fine too.

The difference is that the Animal Rights movement really does not believe in people living with animals. They would rather there not be any dog breeds and pet dogs die out completely, and dogs revert back to packs of feral dogs, like coyotes or wolves. The fact that you tell your dog to SIT to give him a treat is terrible to them, because you are enslaving an animal for your own ends -- they are that crazy.

There is nothing wrong with the premise of owning a dog or many dogs. This movement is trying to change the way we think about dog-ownership. Dog ownership is in fact responsibility for a specific dog and nothing more. It is not negative. They are trying to make the terminology negative to forward their attitudes of a people's relationship with animals.

I don't think any of us on this site would be happy with the world according to how Animal Rights People would have it.

 

As stated, this topic has been gone over and over a million times. Here's my opinion: He has never hurt an animal. He never does anything worse than a mother dog would do to a pup. The Alpha mindset can be taken too far by some, but the idea behind it works if done properly. Although I say I am my dog's owners, I really don't think of it that way. They mean a great deal to me, so I do everything I can for their betterment. However, I realize that being a human, with a human brain, I have dominion over animals. I do not think that this makes me better, but it is a great thing because I can protect the animals and provide for them. I also acknowledge that they do a lot for me, but in the long run I know what is best for them so they need to listen to me.

 

As stated, this topic has been gone over and over a million times. Here's my opinion: He has never hurt an animal. He never does anything worse than a mother dog would do to a pup. The Alpha mindset can be taken too far by some, but the idea behind it works if done properly. Although I say I am my dog's owners, I really don't think of it that way. They mean a great deal to me, so I do everything I can for their betterment. However, I realize that being a human, with a human brain, I have dominion over animals. I do not think that this makes me better, but it is a great thing because I can protect the animals and provide for them. I also acknowledge that they do a lot for me, but in the long run I know what is best for them so they need to listen to me.

Do you actually raise puppies?

I do.

I have this bitch, she is just so kool, great dam. She has had a young bitch in with her up to the time that she was ready to give birth to her next litter. And I was watching close, as a pregnant bitch can be a bit testy with anything that might hurt her pups. Hepsi was nearly a year old when I separated her from her dam, and she NEVER did anything close to what Cesar does to dogs.

Jenna has two six month old bitch pups in with her now. When Karma starts playing rough with Kaiah, Jenna grabs the back of her collar and pulls her away. She does not scruff her or use her mouth on her neck or anything of the sort. She plays with the puppies, and lets them walk all over her.

I have other dams who are similar in how they treat young puppies. Generally I do not leave them with the dam for close to a year though. Evenso, I have never witnessed a dam acting in anyway like Cesar. I do not see them pinning their puppies, and I do not see them scruffing them either. At most a dam might give them a bit of noise.

 

you wouldnt think a dog is on the same level as a human if you had to choose to send in either a dog or your son/daughter to clear a house with bombs in iraq. the worst behaved dogs are the ones that people humanize.

 

Back to cesar... I have only watched a few episodes of his show but my biggest complaint is that he didn't seem to solve any real problems with the dogs. In cases where the owners were, well I will just come out and say it, stupid, he makes inroads and the dogs are better. But when the owners aren't nutty and the dos have real problems I really didn't see a marked improvement.

Once again let me reiterate that I have only watched a couple episodes of the dog whisperer.

 

I have a friend who is kind of obsessed with the dog whisperer show. My fiance picked up some bad habits from it and started getting into stare downs with my dog, then was all freaked out when she started barking at him. I don't like that it spreads misinformation about canine body language and I REALLY don't like it that they describe Millan as a "behaviorist." He has a very narrow and incomplete understanding of how dogs work, just based on the show alone, and his methods from episode to episode are very cookie cutter. Sometimes they are underwhelming but the show tries to make him appear like a lion tamer through narration, like in this clip:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CZsaEF30rdI&desktop_uri=/watch?v=CZsaEF30rdI

These people come to him with very common, solvable problems and it is obvious they didn't try to educate themselves at all before bringing in the big guns.

That said, how much of the show's ridiculousness is just editing for entertainment? Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis? If you take out the crappy narration, a lot of what he says is just good simple advice. I guess my problem is really with the show and not so much with Millan. There are many trainers out there that aren't so great, most just don't have a TV show.


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Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis?

In my opinion, no, not really.

They're all kind of the same thing: project "calm assertive energy" (without much of a breakdown in how exactly the reader is meant to accomplish this), make sure your dog gets enough exercise, etc. Some of it is good-but-basic info, some is vague woowoo, none of it is IMO anything you wouldn't get from watching the TV show.

Granted I only read one book and skimmed through a couple of others on bookstore shelves, so it's entirely possible I overlooked something, but what I did read was not tremendously impressive to me.

 

No, no, the word judging wasn't directed at you, although I can see I shouldn't have capitalized "some" people cause that does sound snarky, sorry! No, I was just trying to say that people can make any kind of decision for themselves -diet, religion, etc etc and not have to impose it on, say other species' diets or other peoples' beliefs. That doesn't in any way make their belief hypocritical, in my opinion. I actually much prefer that people carry their own beliefs and opinions without trying to compel others to share them as well. Not quite sure what you meant by "people like you" however, I'm neither a vegan nor a proselytizer!

 

Haha, no worries....sorry for the "people like you" I was reading your post in a different light than you now clarified and I got a little defensive myself lol.

 

Merceil,

I've been thinking about it. I think the problem is my POV is that you should not compare humans to animals (dogs in particular because we are on a dog forum lol). But I believe that goes both ways. You can't say a dog does no wrong (I mean general "you"), has no moral code, and is all nature, but then say, "my dog loves me" "my dog is ashamed for eating the garbage" "my dog thinks it's funny when I try and get him to do something"....all of these things "love, shame, humor" they are human-only traits..just like "vengeance, hate, greed, guilt" are all human traits and characteristics. When you interpret canine gestures with "human" qualifications, I believe you do a dis-service to the animal. You muddle the line between human expectations and animal expectations. I don't expect my dog to "get mad" when someone is threatening me....I do expect him to realize a member of his pack is being threatened, and that he can possibly diffuse that situation via signals/gestures...snarling, barking, lunging, etc....but I don't attribute those reactions to "anger" or "love" for me....it's nature, and a natural reaction....it may seem callus of me, but I am talking from a scientific/non-emotional POV.

Now the emotional/non-scientific side of me thinks, "my dog loves the crap out of me and I him. And he will protect me to the end of the earth" ;-) Now which is reality is really in the perspective of the beholder.

 

Have any of you read Mark Bekoff's book, Wild Justice? He makes a good case for the underpinnings of morality being rooted in survival and non-human animal social rules. I think ANY species will do what we consider to be atrocious acts when certain constraints are removed. When wolves are confronted with a flock of penned sheep, they may maim many of them without finishing the kill because the stakes are fairly low, causing needless suffering. You see the same thing with humans, wrecking our environment because so far nothing has stopped us. The cultures that have an intense respect or even worship of animals tend to have a life or death relationship with them. I guess I don't see humans as being that different, aside from our ability to use abstract language to talk about future consequences. This allows "moral" drama to play out in more complicated ways, because we can envision more complex possibilities and connections between behavior and consequences...

This is a really interesting discussion!


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No, I will def have to find that book. I love this topic! I think some of the debate boils down to humanizing non-human animals. Attaching human emotion to their behaviors. Even terms such as "brother, mother, father" aren't used in scientific studies because as humans we automatically attach our emotions and feelings with those words...."dog-brothers" invokes a "human-relationship" when used to describe non-human animals.

The example you give of the wolves maiming sheep, essentially, "just because they can." It may be discussed in the book, so sorry if I am grabbing at straws...but couldn't it be hypothesized that they maimed the others to make them even more "available" when/if the time comes. A wolf, who hunts on an "as-needed" basis, and may go days without eating, simply because there is no food available....may come across something as big as a herd of penned sheep, and want to make sure that whatever it doesn't get to, will always be available. We attach our human emotions of "suffering, atrocity, and needless-death" to this situation, where a wolf sees it purely from a survival standpoint....what's better than 100 penned sheep? Maybe 100 injured, penned, sheep....I don't know...just thinking out loud.

 

Are Cesar's books any better, and are there any clearer sources than the dog whisperer show for demonstrating how he is with his own dogs on a day to day basis?

'Cesar's way' is definitely a good representation of CM's philosophies and ideas. You basically get a scattering of his methods in the show. Some show may deal with certain issues but the book provides his whole vision of how a dog should be cared for in his opinion.

After reading his book I find the show more interesting to watch too as i understand why he is doing what he is doing in most cases. I trust his judgement with regard to reading a dogs energy and have seen how his theories and ideas and observations on behavior can change pack mentality in my own experience with dogs.

He makes mistakes as well but the fact he shows these on air tells me he doesn't have much to hide. Anybody would make mistakes if they jumped in as many scenarios as CM. Most positive only trainers wouldn't touch a high percentage of cesar's cases.

 

Trying to learn dog training by watching CM on TV is like preparing for child birth by watching Baby Story on TLC; useless

 

Bahahaha, as someone who gave birth to my child with no epidural....I LOVE this....lol

 

@seizer

Look at my comment below forgot to tag

 

I am sorry but we do the dog a lot more justice when we respect it for what it is physically and temperamentally.

 

If we were not meant to eat meat, no humans would eat it.

 

@Sunflowers

Again put a toddler in a cage with a live chicken and an apple what will it eat? That tells you if we really are meant to eat meat. Or if we saw a squirrel or a deer impulse would be to run at him grab him with jaws rip him to shreds and eat them raw.

 

Lobo, much information can be gained simply by looking at an animal's teeth.

Humans are omnivores. Look at our teeth, compared to a horse's, compared to a dogs. Think about how they work to chew food and what type of food. And look at the digestive tract and how it works.

Raising a dog as a vegan is an insane idea IMO. Get a hamster next time, if you can't stand the thought of your pet eating meat, the way it's meant to.

 

The impulse of the dog would be to do just that. (kill and eat the prey)
Can you reference some viable studies that show long lived, healthy, vegan dogs?

If I felt it was TRULY healthier for a dog to eat a Vegan life style I would be right there as I abhor the practices behind commercial meat production, but how many posts do we have from members in India (where a healthy vegetarian lifesytle is embranced) struggling with the health of their dogs.

Becker at Mercola is very much holistic and alternative and is also opposed to vegetarian diets for dogs. They are designed by nature to eat meat even if they can survive as omnivores.

Ellen DeGeneres' Vegan Dog Food Is NOT Advisable

 

Look at the links below and read them those are the references.

 

Heh, vegan dogs, I've heard it all now. I watched Archer stalking rabbits this morning shortly after dawn. One broke cover, flash of white tail and it was on- the very definition of prey drive kicked in. He didn't catch it, but had he that rabbit was breakfast.

 

what is sad is that there are people who try to raise their CATS on a vegan diet. Dogs can live on a vegetarian diet; cats are obligate carnivores. Without meat, they WILL die.

 

I will agree that many factory farms, commercial feedlots, and industrial-line butchers ARE the definition of suffering. However, that is not, nor should it EVER, be the norm in meat production.
It is really not hard at all to purchase meat from known sources that is well-cared for and slaughtered humanely.

 

Dogs can live off garbage too, doesnt mean I feed mine from the local dumpster.

Any idiot that puts a dog on a vegan diet just to advance an agenda is nothing less then an idiot. Its funny the same person thats talking about putting dogs on vegan diets is talking about Cesar hitting dogs, which shows no understanding of what he actually does.

You get used to reading stupid things on internet forums but this really is up there.
Anyways dont let me interrup

 

ISSUU - Something to eat or someone to respect? by Animal Equality

Choose Veganism | Animal Equality
Plant-strong & healthy living: Rip Esselstyn at TEDxFremont - YouTube

Cloud Atlas Scene - From Womb To Tomb - YouTube

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...oto.php?fbid=629722330382115&set=a.456449604376056.98921.367116489976035&type=1

PlantFit: COK Interviews Vegan Crossfitter Ed Bauer | Compassion Over Killing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VRZ08sblVw&feature=player_embedded

Water for pig angel victims in Toronto's heat wave - YouTube

JURIST - Hotline: Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act Threatens Activism

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vegandognutrition/
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@Blitzkrieg

If you care about animals why eat it? Have you asked many vegan diet dog guardians how vegan diet is going for them?

 

Slightly off-topic but not really.... Did you know that squirrels also eat meat? It isn't a large staple of their diet but during nesting session, they will eat eggs and chicks. They will also raid hen houses for eggs.

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Request for this thread to be moved out of training theory because it's nothing about Cesar anymore

 

You guys do realize you're arguing with a kid right?


Also how do you go about finding out where meat comes from and what places are good and bad?

 

Around here you can go directly to the rancher and see for yourself. If your ok with their practices, then order a whatever you want, cut however you like.