Is pain (prong/choke) effective at fixing a problem?

[simba405]

I've had a prong collar on my 10 month boy ever since he turned 6 months. it has stopped him from pulling and whenever he misbehaves i just give it a good yank to fix the problem. he is really well behaved and has free run of the house already. he stays home alone all the time and doesnt mess up anything. he walks well on a leash and doesnt pull.

But does a prong collar REALLY fix the problem? I'm beginning to think he doesnt pull because he doesnt want the pain. He still doesnt know what i want from him. i'm starting to think clicker/positive is the way to go to get him to understand what i really want. i want to get rid of the prong all together. but if i use a clicker and tell him to sit and he looks at me and says MAKE ME, then what? what is the most effective way to make a dog understand what you want him to do?

the prong has been extremely effective but im not sure if its correcting the problem or just masking it.

[Anubis_Star]

It sounds like you aren't working with a trainer, and therefor have no formal training on how to use the prong collar. It sounds like you are using it WRONG.

Unless it is a very hard dog requiring such a correction, there should be no pain involved. A light pop, "leash correction", with instant release. NOT a hard tug.

My trainer had a great way of learning. Take a chair with wheels and put it on a tile/laminate/wood floor. Tie your leash to it and give a leash correct. If the chair moves across the floor at all you are PULLING, not giving a proper leash pop.

I'm a firm believer that most dogs will never be proofed an solid without some form of correction. Some do fine with verbal. Many require physical. Again this does not automatically mean PAIN. Read above, a slight discomfort and pressure to the neck to mark negative behavior is very different from hanging your dog up. Berlin, my pup, is on an easy walk harness while we work on leash training with a regular flat collar during training. Zeke was put on a prong about 1 year of age and now is walked easily with a choke chain.

Good luck My best advice, find a GOOD trainer in your area.

[JakodaCD OA]

I agree with Anubis above

For me, a prong collar is a tool for training IF needed, you phase it out with training and I end up going with either a flat buckle collar or martingale type collar.

I also agree you need to find a good trainer to help YOU teach your dog as well as the dog will learn

[Gretchen]

Collars, leashes and walking seem so basic, don't they? I thought so until I found a good trainer. There is a proper way to fit the prong, there is a proper way to hold the leash with or without the prong, and as others mentioned a proper "popping".

Both of our trainers told us our dog was extremely strong willed. When she was younger using the prong was the most effective method for training, and just because she was strong willed does not mean we gave her pain. None of the trainers popped her to the point where she yelped.

Are you using verbal commands and/or hand signals while you walk? like heel? Our dog is well trained now, she is almost three and I stopped using the prong when she was about 2 yrs old, but it took lots of training to get to this point.

[martemchik]

All training methods really depend on the dog. If your dog will do things for praise (clicker) than it works, but there are situations where a dog won't stop a behavior just for praise or a treat. In those situations, and for those kinds of dogs, you need some reinforcement. GSDs are known to be stronger willed dogs, and although they are willing to please, many people still like them to think for themselves once in a while.

I don't correct with a prong unless I KNOW 100% my dog knows what is expected from him. The way it sounds you were "yanking" was that the dog didn't understand you expected him to either be in heel or not pulling. If I tell my dog "heel" and he doesn't come into heel...he gets corrected with a quick tug on the leash. But he knows heel...before he didn't know heel...I didn't correct him and guided him there with a treat. Once he was there he was praised.

The way it sounds you're using the prong is the way 95% of people use the prong. My dog pulls, this tool makes them stop pulling (due to the correction/pain), so they just strap it on and go. It's for control rather than training. But when used properly, its a great tool.

[katdog5911]

I am a firm believer in the prong. Up until a little while ago I was using positive only training, clicker or verbal. This was wonderful for learning new things and learning fun tricks. BUT it did not stop dog reactivity. A prong correction is what works for us in that situation. Stella knows fus, watch me, sit, etc etc but forget it when another dog is coming towards us. So a couple of pops and she stops the nonsense. This has been a looooong process and we are now at a point where the prong is on her with a short tab attached. I use the flat collar but when she starts "poofing" I will grab the tab and give a correction.
But the dog absolutely needs to understand what is being asked. I don't know if we will ever go "prongless" due to her dog reactivity. But she is better than she was a year ago....so who knows....

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by simba405

But does a prong collar REALLY fix the problem?

If all you're doing is correcting him for pulling then no, it's probably not fixing anything. If he still pulls when he's NOT wearing it, that's your answer right there.

I'm beginning to think he doesnt pull because he doesnt want the pain. He still doesnt know what i want from him.

Exactly. Correcting a dog for doing it wrong isn't necessarily teaching him how to do it right, and that's the part of the equation that seems to be missing here. All you're doing is using the prong as management. As long as you're aware of that and are okay with it, that's fine. But if you'd like him to know how to walk nicely on leash you're going to have to actually show him what you want, and that's where rewarding him for getting it right is much more productive. Once you determine your criteria for a LLW, there's only going to be one right way to do it, but a lot of wrong ways, which is why it can be much clearer to the dog to mark and reward the behavior you want.

If you already have a big strong dog (vs a young puppy) with a propensity to pull, you can still have him wear the prong to manage pulling while you train loose leash walking.

[simba405]

my dog does NOT pull. i can walk him down a busy street with my hands by my side and a completely lose leash. if he starts to get in front of me all i have to do is say eh ah heel and he'll immediately slow down and be at my side. if i see another dog coming i can tell him to sit and he'll sit until released.

but this weekend we went fishing and he saw the water and pulled like crazy. he forgot what heel meant. i popped his prong as hard as i could and he just looked at me and then started pulling. i made him sit and the moment i took a step forward he started to run towards the water. he just straight up chose not to listen and pain didnt slow him down. i highly doubt a treat would've either.

when he chooses not to listen, what is the most effective way to make him listen?

[martemchik]

In your situation...you turn around and walk the other way. Could take an hour, but you only want them to get to where they want to go on your terms and not on their terms. So you go the other way from where he clearly wants to go. At one point he'll realize that he needs to listen to you in order to get what he wants.

You're right, a treat might not have distracted him from the water, but a toy might have. Or something else he really really wants. Something you can withhold easily until he does what you ask him. That is the key to training, figuring out what your dog can't live without and using it to get them to do what you want.

[Rangers-mom]

This thread is really interesting. I have been going to a trainer for 6 sessions - 4 private and 2 group - and i still don't understand how to use the prong collar that the instructor recommended. She showed me how to "snap" it a couple of times, but it is not really something I can practice in front of her so I don't think she realizes that I don't know what I am doing. I scheduled the lessons so that I could get Ranger over his fears, but she didn't work specifically on those fears with me, just basic obedience. I can understand that I need basic obedience to tackle these fears, but I just don't get how to do it. Ranger is better with the prong collar but he still pulls. And as for the fears - I have figured out some strategies on my own. I have just decided to switch back to the gentle leader harness for general walks and the prong for training. Hopefully I can figure out how to use it properly.

Man, I wish I were as smart as Ranger and I could figure out this obedience stuff.