Developing respect and partnership

[Kaiser2012]

Well, I just received a blow to my self esteem... Apparently kaiser loves me, but doesn't respect me.

I basically showed my trainer the difference in his motivation to work between the use of voice commands/ treat rewards (what she wants me to do) and the use of a stuffie/chuckit/frisbee.
In the first scenario, it takes some work and usually corrections to get him focused and into the ob work. With the second, after some teasing, he is rock solid with his ob and seems like he really enjoys the "game". I want that kind of enthusiasm regardless of the reward (even its just a verbal "good boy") but my trainer made no mention of how to get there. She wants to go back to the basics, keeping with food as the reward and using my voice and presence to exude confidence.

Well, i already use my business voiceand move with conviction, so to speak, so there is nothing that can be altered there. Also, even if I skip meals, food is only a reward to him if nothing else exists that is more interesting. Behind closed doors, so to speak, his ob is great. Same with when we are outside with no distractions. Any other time though he is hard to redirect.

She said that it will be hard to get him to a point where he can get is bh or compete in agility, or any dog sport. This, after she said a week ago that I was a good trainer (huge compliment from her) and that kaiser had promise to be a great obedience dog.

So now I'm confused and concerned.

I need help understanding what it is I can do to deepen the bond with kaiser. He doesnt get anything for free, I expect more of him than most people do at home and out and about, and I do my best to promote a polite, well behaved pup.

The only thing I do now that she advises against is having toys available for him at all times and not crating him when he isn't eating or training. Now, I'm not looking to create a highly competative sport dog...so its hard for me to take away things that he has had since he was 8weeks old. I now know i would have raised him differently had i planned on being THAT competitive... But I dont know if its fair to him to change so dramatically in that respect. I dont know. I just feel like there are great sport dogs out there who have a very deep respect for their person without being relegated to a crate without access to toys (unless given to them). Ill add that the toys I was using for rewards during training were never given at any other time.

Help! And thank you if you made it through all my rambling. =)

[llombardo]

My dog has toys everywhere and is never in a crate and she does well in agility, so I don't think that is an issue, but I guess that would depend on the dog. Since you have done what appears to be quite a bit of obedience, have you thought about getting into agility? You might be surprised what your dog can do. Training is not necessarily all business, it can be playful and fun...your dog seems to need that fun part, nothing wrong with that.

[Kaiser2012]

I would love to get into agility. A new place just opened up but they seem to have a lot of rules (one being no dogs with any sort of aggression are allowed). Kaiser is weird with dominant males for the most part, but I'm put off by the fact that this place wont even take him as a student. I've done agility with Dakota (different facility) and the first classes are all on leash anyway, and we had some reactive dogs in that class who just stood a bit further away from the group with no issues.

There are a couple places about 1-1.5hrs from me, but right gas money is tight. I do some basic stuff with him myself and he seems to enjoy it, but I do want to get better focus under distractons down a bit more. Right now other dogs are more interesting than I am.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Why can't you use the toy? It should be what is rewarding to the dog....if that's it? It would be like you could pay me in dark chocolate and I'd be meh, but if you brought out the milk chocolate, my engagement would increase.

Relationship Centered Training | Suzanne Clothier is a nice article about the relationship, which is the foundation.

But I am not sure the exact deal here of what she is saying to you.

[gsdsar]

The dog should be rewarded with what he finds valuable. Not what your trainer thinks he should find valuable.

Most people use food when teaching as it is easier to position a dog and rewards don't stop forward motion like a toy would. However a trainer worth their salt, should be able to work with what the dog gives.

To say the dog is not bonded to or respects you is unfair.


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[katdog5911]

Seems to me that the dog should dictate what is used as a reward. It needs to be valuable to him. I wanted to do agility but have some reactive issues. So we have started nosework, which is basically fun with really no obedience necessary. Great confidence builder as well.

[jourdan]

I agree the dog should be rewarded with what he absolutely goes nuts for. Avery loves treats when we are in low distraction environments but prefers a toy when in high distraction environments. The toy we use in high distraction is a toy that he gets to play with when I want to play with him, he has several toys he can play with whenever but his training toy is special. You've got to find what works best for you and sometimes that's different than what a trainer says.


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[Kaiser2012]

Whew I don't feel so awful now for having an opinion that differs from my trainers... But I'm still frustrated. I guess the toy is more of a short term incentive which is separate from his willingness to work for me without one. Ultimately I do want a strong working relationship as well as respect at home, but I have trouble understanding how im supposed to engage him if the reward, whatever it is, isn't something he responds to every time.

[joshua9578]

Originally Posted by jourdan

I agree the dog should be rewarded with what he absolutely goes nuts for. Avery loves treats when we are in low distraction environments but prefers a toy when in high distraction environments. The toy we use in high distraction is a toy that he gets to play with when I want to play with him, he has several toys he can play with whenever but his training toy is special. You've got to find what works best for you and sometimes that's different than what a trainer says.


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DITTO

[Blanketback]

I agree with you, and everyone else, that the highest value item is the reward. And like you said, his reward toys aren't his everyday toys. I'd be very interested to see if anyone else responds to the thread to explain why a food reward that's going to be ignored is better that a toy that holds so much value. Since I do this too, lol.

Why do you think your trainer shouldn't be questioned? I know you're posting here and all, questioning....but she seems to have given your own confidence a jolt and that's not good either.