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Sit Means Sit - collar enforced training

20K views 106 replies 29 participants last post by  SuperG 
#1 ·
I would like to know if anyone has used or what they've heard about this training program. Contemplating on using them and have heard mixed reviews among different dog owners of various breeds, but haven't found a GSD owner that I could get feedback from


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#3 ·
I've known two people who used them (one with a GSD mix, the other with an Aussie) and both dogs were fried by that training program. Specifically, they were often "corrected" with the E-collar for legitimate mistakes--the dog didn't know what was being asked, and the owner was instructed to shock them anyway. I believe there is a place for E-collars in training, but there is absolutely no reason to use them to "reinforce" basic training as was done with these two dogs.

I have also heard significant complaints about their business model, which is (from what I've heard) geared towards making money, not turning out competent dog trainers. It is a franchise system and I've heard it likened to the "Mary Kay" of dog training. Nothing wrong with making money, but what it means for you is that you might go to a Sit Means Sit-certified trainer who is great, but you go down the street to another one and they're an abusive idiot who shouldn't even be allowed in the same room as a dog, and just kept that under wraps enough at the training school to pass. It's the same problem you get with other franchises (like Petsmart and Petco), but with the added risk of easily-misused E-collars being used as a staple of the training.

It might also help if you told a bit about what your training goals are. Are you looking for basic obedience, performance, etc.? That might also color the advice you get, as one of the major objections I (and many others) have to them is the use of E-collars so early in the training...which wouldn't apply if you're looking at Schutzhund training or something like that.
 
#5 ·
My boss did the board and train with one of his golden retrievers. She returned a completely different dog, in a bad way. She is now DA through fences and on leash, freaks out when given a bath or when her feet are touched ( she loved this before, now she panics, yelps, snaps, etc). She also barks at anything that makes noise, which she did not do before.
Granted she's a golden, but i would not recommend them after seeing the results she's had.
 
#7 ·
I used the sit means sit methods in my ecollar training.
My instructor was familiar with the exercises and used them with success for her own and other clients dogs.
When it came time for me to start w/ ecollar, we used the same techniques.
We did not rush anything and it took a few months from beginning to end(proofing stage) for my dog to be trained on ecollar. But we used it for certain things, not behavioral modification, but directionals/send outs/recalls, etc. So it was just incorporated into my training program.
 
#10 ·
I would go with Lou's instruction, if given the choice.
 
#15 ·
I also asked this and because of their heavy marketing it seems this question comes up every now and then. I came to the conclusion (as many others did) that Sit means sit is very very bad news. What they do is not dog training but a simple video game like routine. Their philosophy is that you need the remote collar on them at all time. Well, if that's the case I guess I can just give my dog a shock for everything I don't want it to do. And the more it does it, the harder I shock it. Pretty easy.
I saw it and was impressed at what was done in 10 minutes but it was too good to be true. They have no regard for address development of superstitious behavior, conditioning, etc. It's mostly remote collar work done wrong.



I would second this. Also, Michael Ellis' (at Leerburg) remote collar concepts are very similar if not the same to Lou's method. Low stims on leash for guidance that teaches the dog to turn pressure off by coming towards you. (For recall work). Using e-collars as a form of punishment for all activities is not recommended. They have their place and I think that the best place for e collars done correctly with low stim is the recall.
 
#11 ·
Id do the research and do it on my own, E collar training is not rocket science. If the dog already knows the command and you just want to use it for proofing off leash the process is very simple. Just collar condition the dog start on leash and move to off leash control. I think with franchises you get the good and the bad, all trainers are not equal. Thats why the only people I truly trust are the TDs at my club and myself.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Since your dog is more advanced (so doesn't fit in to the biggest criticisms I have heard/seen), can you sit in on a few classes, preferably at least one where they're working on issues like you want to fix in your dog? Any reputable trainer should allow potential clients to sit in on 1-3 classes to make sure the methods fit their needs. If they won't allow you to watch even one class, I'd personally take that as a huge red flag. Seeing the methods in action can give you a lot more information than online reviews can, especially for a franchise like this where individual quality may vary hugely.

Personally, I would still stay away because I feel that a method that incorporates an E-collar so early is not likely to attract people who train the way I want my dogs trained. But this is an area that is open to debate, so that's just my opinion. ;)
 
#16 ·
Thats because the shock collars cause a lot of environmental fears. Especially if they are being overused, the dog never really understands whats going on. This is why this franchises training model is so negative. Unfortunately at the surface they look great in their videos and demos. People are so distracted by their desire to get their dogs trained quick and easy, that they don't take the time to research, as well as see how this quick and easy can actually be more harmful in the long run.
 
#17 · (Edited)
E collars don't cause environmental fears. Bad trainers who don't know how to clarify why a dog is being corrected do.

Any correction no matter what it comes from prong collar/flat collar/slip collar/stick/choke collar/your foot/ your hand/throwing your keys at the dog has the potential to cause a superstition.

That potential rises based on differences in a few different factors like novelty of the device used to punish or the environment you are in, intensity of stimulus, timing(bad timing obviously means higher chance of superstition), prior experience, whether or not you use an appropriate procedure that teaches a dog clearly, temperament of the dog and probably a few others I am blanking on at this moment.

The tool isn't the issue. It is always the trainer.

And lets say your dog does end up with a superstition of something in the environment because of an e collar correction. Just show him it isn't true. Dogs go through periods of confusion when you are teaching and especially when you use corrections. They get over it once they understand. If you don't leave them in that confused state and continue to teach until they understand.

That being said. Most SMS trainers are probably crap and don't even really know what I just typed above. You can find someone better that is cheaper or at a similar price. ****, even Ivan Balabanov's pet training courses are cheaper than SMS. Jason Davis is great too he's in Florida as well.
 
#45 ·
E collars don't cause environmental fears. Bad trainers who don't know how to clarify why a dog is being corrected do.

Any correction no matter what it comes from prong collar/flat collar/slip collar/stick/choke collar/your foot/ your hand/throwing your keys at the dog has the potential to cause a superstition.

That potential rises based on differences in a few different factors like novelty of the device used to punish or the environment you are in, intensity of stimulus, timing(bad timing obviously means higher chance of superstition), prior experience, whether or not you use an appropriate procedure that teaches a dog clearly, temperament of the dog and probably a few others I am blanking on at this moment.

The tool isn't the issue. It is always the trainer.

Generally speaking though, I subscribe he marker/reward based training for almost any behavior. Especially for high drive dogs, I think the denial of a reward is a punishment in and of itself. I really like the ideas discussed in Ivan Balabanov's Advanced Schutzhund and the idea of Ultimate Punishment, i.e. reward denial, to make dogs more active thinkers on and off the field. His method involves no use of compulsion even with the most advanced and complicated of training tasks. That said, again, certain behaviors need to have a consequence if they are harmful to the dog or others, but only when he dog already knows what is being ask is just refusing.
Don't get ticked off and go away!

That's Baillfi and he's pretty straight forward! I find it "refreshing myself" although I don't and can't do or understand a fraction of the things he knows!

But his knowledge is "enlightening" and if nothing else it makes us figure out how we can make "a given suggestion" work for us!"

I "train" tool free myself "flat collar and leash" and even I got slammed, in the above! He made valid points however! No matter what "we" do to train our dogs, we do shape the dogs behaviour! Being aware is never a bad thing!

For the record I'm changing from a Flat collar and leash to a Slip Collar and if I could train a dog with "telekinesis" I'd go there! :)
 
#18 ·
Lou Castle's method of e-collar is not only humane but also extremely effective.

E-collar work, when used correctly, opens up a whole new wave of communication and reassurance for me to my dog Zelda.

Because i did not trust myself using the e-collar without someone helping me right next to me physically, i ended up using a dog trainer, who has similar style to Lou Castle, using low stim levels, guiding the dog and not making them guess what you want them to do, and constant communication.

She is not fearful of me, the collar, the stim levels i use, etc. Its merely communication.

As a fear aggressive dog to strangers, and a high prey drive dog, she HAS to have reliable recall.

You would never be able to tell when i use or dont use the e-collar on her. The other day i forgot to turn her collar on, and everything i asked her to do was perfect i had no idea it wasn't on and apparently it didnt matter to her either, and she always has so much fun off leash! The rush of the release seems to bring her joy in itself, in fact she loves to come in and check up on me all the time now, for a scratch and then prances off with joy, and then if i ask her sit randomly, she will do it immediately, usually intensely waiting for my release, after which she returns to her prancing around with joy in the snow!

Not sure if this will help, but my first session with an e-collar trainer and some updates, http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...t-session-e-collar-trainer-today-3-hours.html
 
#19 ·
I don't know personally about what SMS does specifically but OLK9 teaches pretty much the same way. Leash pressure plus low level stim and fade out the leash. In theory anyway.
Maybe they get a little impatient and turn up the juice sometimes.
 
#20 ·
My thoughts on eCollars: they have only 2 places in a training program, and only for certain dogs and certain people with the self-control and experience use them properly.

I don't think a dog should ever be corrected and no compulsion used in the primary training phase of training. Too often, the dog makes a legitimate mistake or is simply confused on what the handler is asking for when they are learning something and they get corrected. This makes for a fearful dog too afraid to try new things in case they are corrected. They become more robotic and react to commands instead of thinking their way threw a problem.

When a dog has completely and thoroughly learned a command, i.e. sit or down or whatever, you have done proofing, then in some instances I think there is the potential for an eCollar.

For example, if I wanted my dog to Sitz faster, I would train for that--with a high value treat or toy--and only reward when the dog complies lightening fast. If the dog is distracted, I would do stimulus training where we start from far away from the distraction and reward for attention/compliance then slowly approach until the dog can work through the distraction. For most dogs I believe this is enough. Punishment is the lack reward/play. However, for some dogs, there may be a certain stimulus that not even the most high value reward can compete with. For these dogs I think an eCollar or prong collar correction may be warranted. Only, though, when he dog has been proofed and you know they know what you area asking for and they are simply refusing to comply. I would use sparingly.

The other instance I think an eCollar could have merit is in self-satisifying behaviors. I subscribe to the notion that most GSD have some degree of OCD and that should be focused on us when they are young through tug/treats/etc. so we become their primary source of entertainment. If a dog engages in negative self-satisfying like chasing birds, their tail, or barking at the fence incessantly, I think not only can these behaviors become hard habits to break because they have discovered they are fun/get some form of satisfaction from them, but some of there drive/attention is taken off of you as the 'fun' person. If, using stimulus training an redirection, these behaviors can't be broken relatively quickly, I think an eCollar could be used to nip the problem in the start.

Generally speaking though, I subscribe he marker/reward based training for almost any behavior. Especially for high drive dogs, I think the denial of a reward is a punishment in and of itself. I really like the ideas discussed in Ivan Balabanov's Advanced Schutzhund and the idea of Ultimate Punishment, i.e. reward denial, to make dogs more active thinkers on and off the field. His method involves no use of compulsion even with the most advanced and complicated of training tasks. That said, again, certain behaviors need to have a consequence if they are harmful to the dog or others, but only when he dog already knows what is being ask is just refusing.
 
#21 ·
Newlie currently wears an e-collar but I have only pressed the button 3 or 4 times on a low setting. And it did work: After two years of working with him using other methods, he now has a pretty solid recall. I haven't used it anymore because it hasn't been necessary. He comes now when I call, even leaving off chasing the rabbits, and every time he does , I make a big deal out of it to further reinforce what he has learned.

Newlie's trainer was the one who recommended it and showed me how to work it. He told me that he didn't recommend it for a lot of people, that his feeling was that they would take a little too much pleasure in using it. That being said, the list of people who I would allow to use an e-color on my dog is small: Other than me, it would only be his trainer.

I don't know anything about this sit means sit training, myself, although it doesn't sound good from the reviews. But I will say that I am not going to turn over my dog to anyone for a period of weeks and give them carte blanche to do whatever they want with my dog. No way, no how.
 
#22 ·
I have the Dogtra 2300 NCP collar. I don't use it much, but no adverse issues. There are to many visions of frustrated owners taking it out on the helpless dog, which is nonsense here.

I knew a guy who had no problem with a stout stick but thought an ecollar was cruel. He now has an ecollar.

It's important to have a good 'page' or vibration feature. Of course one has to back up to training, the dog must be trained to know what is expected. One of the biggies is to come when called, in this area an ecollar is great. Our dog is off leash a lot, out and about. An ecollar is like a 200' leash.
 
#23 ·
The sit means sit guys around here are awesome! Unfortunately,I didn't have the money to train with them. They offered a great deal, but I just can't afford a trainer right now.

We have just started e collar work at home. Tell him "here" and buzz the page button. Still working on lead and have not had to use the stim yet.
 
#24 ·
I don t think anyone should use any compulsion collar unless they are working with a REPUTABLE trainer. Most REPUTABLE trainers use them as a last resort if at all. If you want to learn how to train WELL you will find the money to pay to go to a couple of classes.

It makes me sick that compulsion collars are sold over the counter to anybody. If someone is NOT TRAINED on how to use it first, they will DEFINITELY WITHOUT A DOUBT cause themselves and their dogs more problems then they will solve.
 
#26 ·
I don t think anyone should use any compulsion collar unless they are working with a REPUTABLE trainer.
The Ecollar is probably one of the easiest of tools to use. It's NOT necessary to work directly with a trainer. My site gives complete beginners, who are able to read and follow simple instructions, the ability to use one to train their dog.

Most REPUTABLE trainers use them as a last resort if at all.
MANY reputable trainers use them as a FIRST resort.

If you want to learn how to train WELL you will find the money to pay to go to a couple of classes.
Nothing wrong with the advice to go to some classes, but it's not necessary to learn to use an Ecollar. .

It makes me sick that compulsion collars are sold over the counter to anybody.
It makes me sick that someone wants to impose restrictions on Ecollars. The idea that more intrusion on our freedom is a good thing is, at best, misguided.

If someone is NOT TRAINED on how to use it first, they will DEFINITELY WITHOUT A DOUBT cause themselves and their dogs more problems then they will solve.
Sorry, I strongly disagree with your opinion on this. Many complete beginners have used the tool with complete success, some of them right here on this forum.

I'd bet that you know very little about the modern use of an Ecollar. If I'm wrong, please let us know. I'll suggest that doing some research may open your eyes, if you have an open mind.
 
#25 ·
I used SMS when there just wasn't anywhere else to turn to. It was a last resort. I'm glad I went through with it. We had a very good trainer. It went well enough, we recommended them to a friend who has a sibling from our dogs littler and it went very well and they had a different trainer than us.

That said. I talked with Lou regarding SMS after being involved in another thread. My experience and outlook was much different than his. He has been around this much longer than I so who am I to doubt his opinion. Lou is an experienced dog trainer and a nice guy to talk to about this type of training. We came or I guess I came to the conclusion that not all SMS trainers are the same. The methods they are taught by the owner are or can be pretty rough for the dog. What's important is what those trainers being trained do with those methods. That's where the difference in trainers lies. I was lucky to have an SMS trainer who took the methods taught and tweaked it a bit to be more kind to the dog being trained.

So, what I would do is contact the trainer in your area. Have him or her over for a meeting and ask for references of past clients he has worked with.

That's the best I can do really. I would recommend them if you have a dog that is just totally out of control like we had. But ask for the references to be sure you know who you're letting train your dog.

Then, there is nothing wrong with Lou's methods. It's basically the price of the e-collar and you need to read the whole web site before starting or buying the collar. He has a specific request for the collars used, so read first. You can also email him if you have questions and he also frequents this site. Like was mentioned before, it's not rocket science, but it can be intimidating if you've never had any experience with ecollars.
 
#27 ·
I went to sit means sit once, as part of my externship in dog training. I was supposed to go check out other local dog trainers to see how they work basically. One of the place I chose was SMS.

I brought sailor as my dog, but sailor was already fully trained in basic obedience. Sit, stay, down, heel, etc...they still recommended an e collar for us.

The guy giving us the free consult proceeded to use his own dog to show what was achievable with SMS and use of the E collar. It was a Belgian or gsd I believe. His dog did some pretty incredible acrobatics, jumping, somersaults, balancing on hind legs on top of something, etc... He was like a ninja dog! The whole time I was watching this incredible feat, I was thinking to myself, I and many people... Do not need their dog to do all of this. The majority of people just want a family/ pet dog that listens and knows the basics. Some people want an acrobat dog, some people want to take it to the next level and train their dog in schutzhund or maybe some kind of advanced dog sport where you would need to take the training to the next level. For a regular every day dog owner, SMS can work, but other methods can work too, costing less money, no use of an e collar, and just as effective.

SMS would not be for me, if I was serious about finding a trainer. SMS is a good option for maybe a small percentage of people out there who really need some specific advanced training, or have a particularly hard to train/problem dog. I think it boils down to the owners wants/ needs and what the dog needs?

After watching all these incredible things e trainer's dog did, I commented that he must be really proud of his dog, and must be happy to have him as a part of his family. The trainer then told me he was considering re homing him or donating him to the police because his wife was pregnant and they already had other dogs. Hmmm

Anyway, this is my experience with SMS and it this was maybe 5 years ago. In Colorado.
 
#28 ·
The guy giving us the free consult proceeded to use his own dog to show what was achievable with SMS and use of the E collar. It was a Belgian or gsd I believe. His dog did some pretty incredible acrobatics, jumping, somersaults, balancing on hind legs on top of something, etc...
This is fairly common among SMS trainers. Many of them have dogs that do these tricks and more. But we have no idea if they've actually trained the dog themselves or it someone else did it for them. Most people just assume that they did the work themselves. But I can assure you that many of them did not.


After watching all these incredible things e trainer's dog did, I commented that he must be really proud of his dog, and must be happy to have him as a part of his family. The trainer then told me he was considering re homing him or donating him to the police because his wife was pregnant and they already had other dogs. Hmmm
This lack of a solid relationship with the dog is not uncharacteristic of SMS. During the three days that I spent with the founder, years ago, he never once showed any real affection towards his own dogs or those of his clients that he worked with. Not one bit of praise beyond, a "what a smart dog." said in a dull, boring voice. He saw the dogs as a means to an end and that end was to make money. He also went through dogs like most of us go through sox. He'd have them for a few years and then they'd just disappear. He'd never explain where they went or what happened to them. I suspect that they just burned out and he put them down. I asked him directly a couple of times but he'd never answer. Hmmm indeed!
 
#29 ·
Thank you for shedding some light on SMS from your experience with them Lou.

I also failed to mention that the price for SMS training is $500+ however you are allowed to come back as much as you want for the lifetime of the dog. I'm not trying to promote or tear them down, just trying to give the facts so people can make their own decision.
 
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