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Old 01-03-2013, 12:23 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I've been working with a "Master Trainer" who came highly recommended but even the same people who recommended her are now expressing disappointment. I am meeting with other trainers this week but I would like to get some outside opinions from more experienced people or trainers if possible.

I practice the obedience commands with my Shadow every day and he got to obey me from the 1st command, but also got to ignore the trainer. I had a perfect recall! I never even needed a correction. She worked him hard so he would listen to her again, pinning him down like wrestlers do, hard corrections on the prong collar, restraining him.. I watched in tears.

Then she began to break my commands, like interrupting a long down and scolding him when he'd come to me on command. I feel like I've lost him. I dont have that 1st command response anymore and I dont understand how scolding him when he obeys me and giving him a treat when he breaks my command is in any way productive. I asked her and she didn't answer. Do you have any idea how that'd help my relationship with my dog at all?

I plan on talking to her again, I'll bring it up with these new trainers... but basically I'm writing because, I don't want to push these new guys' ethics to possibly badmouth a fellow trainer and she can BS me as I'm not experienced. I actually do lose sleep with the worry that I may not get my dog's trust and attention back so any comments any of you can give about this woman's approach will be very appreciated as will suggestions for screening a new trainer. Thanks in advance and I'm sorry for the long post.

A confusing post! (to me anyway)

Who is handling your dog - you or the trainer?

If you have the ability to "get 1at command obedience" and a "perfect" recall - why are you going to a trainer in the first place?

BTW - how old is your dog?
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:26 AM   #22 (permalink)
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This is all old school stuff not done anymore - esp the pinning down/roll ...and the goal is that the dog obeys you not the "MT"....

If what someone does to your dog makes you cry - stop them and get the dog out of there....someone wanted to force retrieve Kyra - they did one session and I stopped them....then they said I would never title her if I did not let them do it...I went on to get 6? 8? Sch3s....and 2 High in Trials.....the dumbbell work was never great, but it was always a Good....worked for me.

I vote with everyone else - QUIT and Go elsewhere.....NOW!

Lee

She should find a new trainer (if she even needs one at all!).

But let's not knock ALL of the "old" trainers, as i remember some of the "old time' dogs did pretty well and also worked very enthusastically as well!

Not everything could have been bad, huh?
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:38 AM   #23 (permalink)
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"she worked him hard so he would listen to her again, pinning him down like wrestlers do, hard corrections on the prong collar, restraining him"

Run.

Your instincts are right.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:24 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I am with codmaster. From your first post it sounded like you were doing a really good job training him on your own. No trainer is better than a bad trainer! If you were having success and having fun then you might not need a trainer. Also the dog is still very young so there is plenty of time to train and proof the commands. He will be a work in progress whether you are working with a professional trainer or not. Personally I do not work with *any* trainer that touches my dog. Their job is to help me communicate more clearly to my dog. As the owner, only *I* handle the dog and touch the dog (well, they can pet my dog and such but you get what I mean...while the dog is in "work" mode it is only me).
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I am with codmaster. From your first post it sounded like you were doing a really good job training him on your own. No trainer is better than a bad trainer! If you were having success and having fun then you might not need a trainer. Also the dog is still very young so there is plenty of time to train and proof the commands. He will be a work in progress whether you are working with a professional trainer or not. Personally I do not work with *any* trainer that touches my dog. Their job is to help me communicate more clearly to my dog. As the owner, only *I* handle the dog and touch the dog (well, they can pet my dog and such but you get what I mean...while the dog is in "work" mode it is only me).
AGREED

These dogs are generally more intelligent and trainable then any toy breed. IMO a trainers job is to teach you how to train your dog. Some dogs can be worked by multi handlers but most work best with their primary handler (YOU). A trainers job is to facilitate that relationship, empower and educate you. Yes, sometimes some methods can appear rough to the uneducated, but these methods should never be exclusive to posative reenforcement. Also, corrections are generally a good way to remove unwanted behaviors not used in the teaching faze of training, which it sounds like your pup is still in..

Personally if I were you I'd do some research and just do it yourself, despite what some would have you believe its far from rocket science. Especially if your just looking to put basic OB on the dog.

Also, please dont let this experience prevent you from properly disciplining the dog when necessary, you will only be doing him and yourself a disservice down the road. These dogs are amazingly resilient I very much doubt there is any lasting harm done to him by a being handled roughly based on how you describe his behavior. Its probably a much bigger deal to you then it is to him.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:07 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't know how old your pup is. I would not let this person or her cronies anywhere near your dog again.

I think that depending on the age of your puppy/dog, I would totally take a complete break from training. For a youngster 6 months or less, I would take 1-2 weeks off. 6-12 months 2-6 weeks off, and over 12 months old, I would probably take 2-3 months off.

I would just enjoy the dog during this time. Minimum stuff, take him on walks, or have him sit while you put the leash on him. Nothing major.

Then I would start all over again with treats and praise and basic commands. I would spend the waiting time, to find someone else to train with and explain that you had a bad experience with a trainer and you would like to sit in a class without your dog to see what methods the trainer uses.

After the break, take the dog to classes, keep training light and fun, and quit when your dog still wants more.

There is plenty of time to fine tune it later.

I think if people tried to stop me from getting to my dog, people would be getting decked.
I think this is excellent advice!
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:18 PM   #27 (permalink)
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One of her clients restrained you?????
What????? This is as outrageous as the trainer's behavior.

I suggest you learn a few good commands. "Stop doing that to my dog!" "Get your hands off me." "No, do not do that."
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:19 PM   #28 (permalink)
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The hold she did, she calls it "putting him in an arc" where she straddled him and pinned his head down. I didn't notice her flipping him over but one of her clients was restraining me because before I started all the crying I was going to jump in between them. I had no words and this was right before the holidays so it's been **** calling other places while they were probably out for winter break.
Wow. I've never used a trainer that I wouldn't hand my leash over to - my dogs have often been used as the demo dog in classes because they're usually ahead of most of the other dogs. BUT, I do the training, and they don't correct my dog, they've just used them to demonstrate whatever skill the class will be working on next. I can't even fathom a trainer doing that with one of my dogs, and I'd be LIVID if someone else got in my way while I tried to prevent it from happening. I wouldn't be crying, I'd be yelling obscenities.

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3rd option is another trainer from Tom Rose with a business in Missouri (Controlled Chaos) but he does training via Skype.
I know who you're referring to, his wife Cheryl used to be a member here. I don't know anything about training via Skype, but I think he'd be a fine choice if you decide to go that route.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
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For a person new to training, I think a trainer or classes are invaluable, though I agree that a bad trainer is worse than not trainer. Group classes are great because they are cheaper than individual training, they hold their own distractions with a variety of people and dogs, and everyone is dealing with their own problems which you can gain a lot from. And working with a group, a lot of times, gives me the motivation to have a good week every week -- always someone's dog is giving them more problems than mine, so it is kind of a boost too.

I hope one bad trainer does not taint the whole of trainers for you. Because I think that you may miss out by not having a trainer at all. A trainer can see things about how our dogs react to our body language that we may not recognize ourselves, and they may have suggestions about things we may never think of on our own.

I am sorry you had such a crumby go-round with this yayhoo. Good luck finding someone else.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
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One of her clients restrained you?????
What????? This is as outrageous as the trainer's behavior.

I suggest you learn a few good commands. "Stop doing that to my dog!" "Get your hands off me." "No, do not do that."

Not to mention "^%^%%$%$##$%^&^&"!
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