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Old 12-06-2012, 01:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I went to Lou Castle's approach for crittering which is VERY LOW stim and it worked much better and with longer duration. Sure, a powerful aversive has a lasting memory but can backfire and can undo some of the dogs natural confidence if it is effective.
That is interesting. I just read it. Game Chasing (Crittering)

Wonder where I can rent a deer around here.

I've been doing it a bit differently. If I can call her off before the chase, I don't correct. If she doesn't heed, then I correct. Lou's way seems like I should make it unpleasant period, for her to even consider it. That to me is changing how the dog think completely about critters. Which... I feel is something I've to process a bit more.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I used small furry farm animals. Goats are pretty similar to deer. SHe generalized quite well and you could see the first part of the sequence going through he should would still stop but break it off herself before she went into the stare part of the sequence even with no collar on.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Hello Muskeg, Good morning in Australia on Friday, Thursday night to you..

You and others have come through with some very thoughtful and responsible intelligent followthrough on this Thread... I thought with all the Left Wing trend these days I would get some real blasts but no, very nice.. On my specific Lifestyle issues, per the way I have described them, with the trucks and traffic at my Factories, and the bait issue for instance Fox and wild dog/dingo poison called 1080 is so strong that one nibble and they are gone, I think prudent use of the shock collar might be near the only and best way to handle these live threatening situations.. Further, with You and Bear, I think the snake issues is also a good one that is hard to train against... Maybe even chasing livestock as a kick from a Bull is deadly..

Mind you I am just lucky in how my two GSDs turned out with snakes, OR they immediately learned from my hysterical screaming response that this was something really dangerous. I really don't know which it is, instinctive snake response that I have seen in other dogs, or a reaction to me their Alpha, going off my head screaming BACK! BACK! I use that back command all the time when they are just in the way, I am coming through with arms full, or swing a tool or chainsaw or something dangerous. Maybe my hysterical behavior combined with that BACK! command has impressed them.

Anyway, interestingly a couple of you GSD Owners have chimed in with my fear: That the E-collar as you call it, could undermine a Dogs confidence... Hmmmmm... By PM I have gotten Pro, or near Pro referrals to a Lou Castle training link that does this taining wih mild stimulation... That middle ground is possibly the way to go. Not a BLAST, just a mild uncomfortable stimulation in response to the bad behavior.

In my case the moving vehicular problems at work everyday could be life threatening if the Dog is not on constant alert watching out for them.. Cars or moving vehicles, backing trailers, forklifts, have an uncomfortable BITE situation associated with them and the dog will learn to avoid them. Maybe the bait issue as to be stepped up, so the good smelling attraction does not overpower the adversion mild shock... And certainly a medium JOLT when coming too close to a snake would be the best deterrent in my mind.. I think prudent use may be the answer..

Fellow Aussies, I go bush a lot, and 1080 is a real and viscious hazard and two day horrible death I hear. Even in civilization, I was competing horses with the NRHA at Horsley Park west of Sydney, and after walking my dogs loose all over the back bush part of HP, to my horror I ran across 1080 bait warnings.. For you Americans that might question my need for this bait thing, it is not just about pro-burglary or dog hater poisons, we also have Government poison baits as Foxes for instance devastate the farmers in lambing season. One fox, just for instincts, has been know to kill 30-40 lambs in one night in the southern part of Oz... Bait proofing can be a serious issue, not just in town to a jealous or anti-dog or burgular sort, but for us in Oz a real issue out in the Bush...

Kind regards, and thanks for the friendly responses an I would still like any training techniques anyone can offer for my specific problems, that would negate the use of the shock-collar...

lone Ranger, living "Dances With Wolves" out on the Last Frontier of Australia, GSDs and Horses rule..
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:09 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I don't have much to add, but if this were me living where there is a high likelihood my dogs could encounter poisonous bait- I would not use Lou Castle's low-stim method (although his training protocols are highly recommended for other behaviors) and would simply blast the dog at a fairly high jolt- enough for a yelp- when he/she even thinks about sniffing or eating food on the ground. I would not say a command, I would act like I didn't know what happened. I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand. I would never throw treats on the ground for them and would not allow them to eat treats that fell on the ground.

This is life and death. It's something the dogs are almost bound to encounter given your lifestyle. You may not always be there to tell the dog to leave it or to come or whatever. Dogs can eat something in an instant.

In the old days, the "dumb" dogs would simply not survive very long. The smart ones, or the ones that had a close and non deadly encounter with cars or bait may learn to leave it alone. You are creating that "close" encounter without the actual risk by using the e-collar to correct.

This is all just my opinion, and only my opinion. I would not normally advocate shocking a dog at a high level unless the dogs was trained and understood corrections but here you want the shock to be "coming" from the food or car or snake.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
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All good Muskeg,

I want to add one clarification. When I baited up the yard, I stood peeking out from a hidden curtain window. The JOLT came from the bait when he went to pick it up. It is very important that I stayed totally hidden. I started with a good jolt and he actually dropped the bait out of his mouth.. After maybe half dozen sessions the end product was him barking at it about a meter in ALARM function until I came out.

The shock never comes from you, it has to come from the object you are adversion training to.. A random bait if touched BITES THE HECK OUT OF YOU!!!! Then they learn it is naturally to be avoided... It has been many years, but I think I used a med-high stimulation to get a bit of a yelp out of him.

I don't know another way, and only worried about undermining personal confidence in my new pup coming. But even that is better than dead.. I will only do it at one to two years old.. I am still looking for a better way... /was hoping someone could tell a training regime to accomplish it without the e-collar... All the Training types I have seen, worked with the Handler present, they soon learned not to touch it.. But when on their own and the Handler gone? It is as if they thought it must be OK...

BTW, am going to Alaska next year in July for my 61st Birthday to try Trophy Rainbow Trout and Salmon fishing... Never done fly fishing. Catch and release program, guided, expensive but what the heck, 5 days in the remote rivers. Your scenery should be so devastatingly beautiful, the fish will not matter much A week at Cheyenne Frontier Days in Wyoming, then up to Alaska. Only wish my new pup could come.. The wolves in the wild are what caught me up into GSDs... "Dances With Wolves" ever since then I am hung up. I am so into them, I am going to Yellowstone in January for 10 days, 2 and a half weeks from Australia all up, to go into the snow bound and closed park by SnowCat to see the wolf packs in action.. 98 Wolves monitored in the park, in ten packs, and pretty much the only time you can see them is around the thermal events where the animals gather in dead of winter. Something like 300 kills a year, last count 90% elk (they have good taste), 13 Bison, dozen or so deer, and odd other like a coyote... It will be a huge experience even if I do not get too close to the wolves. Four days by Snowcat looking, four days by snowmobile, two days open to learn cross country skiing... You must see a lot of them living in Alaska.... !!!!!!!

Best regards from Australia, only dingos and foxes, a few deer, tons of rabbits, and millions of giant hoppers, heh he...

Last edited by lone Ranger; 12-06-2012 at 10:37 PM. Reason: add age recommendation
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand.
You want to be careful with teaching a dog to only eat from your hand. What if something happens to you and you have to rely on someone else to care for the dog? They might just starve themselves to death.

Eating only from their bowl is fine.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:01 AM   #27 (permalink)
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That is interesting. I just read it. Game Chasing (Crittering)

Wonder where I can rent a deer around here.

I've been doing it a bit differently. If I can call her off before the chase, I don't correct. If she doesn't heed, then I correct. Lou's way seems like I should make it unpleasant period, for her to even consider it. That to me is changing how the dog think completely about critters. Which... I feel is something I've to process a bit more.
First, thanks to those who have mentioned my name, methods and linked to my site. I truly appreciate it.

Bear L I'd suggest that you try using a cat first. They've much easier to get than deer and many dogs will generalize to the deer if you use the cat. Some dogs might need a button press or two, if they come across a deer, but that takes care of most of them. BUT if you DO need a deer (It's very rare that a dog needs one) do a search on Google for "deer farm California" and several of them will come up. These are usually farms where they raise deer for venison for the commercial market. Often these places have a petting zoo and, if you explain what you need and tell them that they'll probably be saving a wild deer's life, they'll help out, for a fee of course. Im told that a few SAR groups do this annually.

Around this time of year, in a few weeks actually, some shopping centers will have "Santa's reindeer" in their parking lots and that's another place you might be able to rent a deer.

What are you thinking about regarding how it changes how a dog views critters?
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:01 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I don't have much to add, but if this were me living where there is a high likelihood my dogs could encounter poisonous bait- I would not use Lou Castle's low-stim method (although his training protocols are highly recommended for other behaviors) and would simply blast the dog at a fairly high jolt- enough for a yelp- when he/she even thinks about sniffing or eating food on the ground. I would not say a command, I would act like I didn't know what happened. I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand. I would never throw treats on the ground for them and would not allow them to eat treats that fell on the ground.
I don't suggest that anyone use low stim methods for poison proofing. I think that the actual need for this is far less than the perceived need. This kind of work need the highest level that an Ecollar has, in fact, I'd recommend going to a fence charger for the work, they're much more powerful. Also, you need to constantly leave food bait on live wires scattered around the yard, changing their location and the type of bait regularly.

And even then, a hungry dog may decide to take the chance. It's notable that the dogs that guard POTUS are not poison proofed.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:30 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Wow Lou, on this site.. I have already visited yours, you come highly recommended.. I may be looking into some training help from you when the pup is about a year old...

Never thought of the fence charger. and I have several battery operated ones for horses but I am afraid they might be too strong. My dogs soon learn the wire fences bite them in the bum. They start out going under the wire, but soon are bit by the tail up!! Now after a few big yelps they only go throught the bars of the gates, never under the wire fences. They will actually run down to a gate and come back the other side...

Not sure how I go with burying the fence charge wire, it would have to be moved to different locations and I am still concerned about their experience leading to a lack of confidence? You have feelings about that and what you would do?

Kind regards from Australia
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Bear L I'd suggest that you try using a cat first. They've much easier to get than deer and many dogs will generalize to the deer if you use the cat.

What are you thinking about regarding how it changes how a dog views critters?
Does that mean dogs that live with cats won't chase wildlife?

My concern is ... not sure.... just want to think it thru since it involves my dog changing her perception about things. Before I just want her perception to be listening to whatever I say, so if I say no chase or abandon chase, she must comply. Your way, correct me freely if I'm stating it wrong, is teaching the dog to be fearful to chase. Fear can be good since it's necessary for survival but my dog is genetically weak nerved already so I try to grow her confidence wherever I can thus am more cautious about this type of perception change. Advise where my logic is flawed.
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