R+ Training: Using the highest reinforcement

[sheep]

Originally Posted by wildo

Read the youtube comments- bitches in heat are allowed to train at that facility. As such, the dog must learn to work around that distraction.

So it is about showing how to help the dog to canalize the stress/energy?

But to let a dog build up so much stress is a bit... well... personally I would prefer not to, if not necessary.

[wildo]

No, I don't think it's particularly about providing an outlet for the stress. Really, in my opinion- at least what I got out of it- is that this is a prime example of NILIF. The dog wants to go see the bitch in heat. In order to get that, he has to do work for the owner, and then he might get the opportunity. It's about manipulating access to reinforcement in order to gain the result your looking for. The dog learns he cannot just take whatever he wants. He has to earn it.

[Rerun]

I would be interested to have seen a video prior to this, but I personally just could never get behind this kind of training because although that is a VERY calm accomodating female, I think allowing the behavior of the male towards the female as his reward is totally inappropriate.

I think they cut out at the end with the air humping because the dog is not relaxed (and I agree you don't want him relaxed for training purposes) but he is not in as much control as they are trying to say he is, IMHO. I understand you can't accomplish much in a few minutes, but I just don't see anything at all being accomplished here in the video at all, which is why I'd be curious to see a few minutes of the same type of training, with a TOY reward vs using the female. They used the toy, he responded to it, so honestly what I was taking from it is they are using the female as an outlet when he's too unfocused and amped up. I don't consider that training. I consider that they can't keep him focused other ways, so when he's too unfocused they allow him to behave inappropriately towards the female, who is a saint for putting up with that.

[wildo]

Fanny Gott is a highly successful dog trainer competing in FCI World championship agility and obedience events. I'd like to think she knows a little something about dog training. This dog is obviously very interested in the female- yet he continues to work through his agility training. I'm sure not every dog could accomplish the same. It's a foundation of NILIF and positive reinforcement training that allows this to happen. I don't think the dog is being rewarded for lack of focus, that doesn't make any sense from a training perspective. The dog did his job (nose target on the plank, in this case) and is allowed a high value reward.

But really, I do agree that people will see what they want to see- myself included. I think it's a great example of NILIF and in my opinion it shows an owner working through an issue without correcting the crap out of her dog.

[wolfy dog]

Originally Posted by wildo

No, I don't think it's particularly about providing an outlet for the stress. Really, in my opinion- at least what I got out of it- is that this is a prime example of NILIF. The dog wants to go see the bitch in heat. In order to get that, he has to do work for the owner, and then he might get the opportunity. It's about manipulating access to reinforcement in order to gain the result your looking for. The dog learns he cannot just take whatever he wants. He has to earn it.

IMHO the only thing he "earns" is more stress while a mating would be what he is after.
In the NILIF techniques dogs do get what they want. I am still curious what the video would have shown after the end when the dog stated to air hump.
OK, over and out for me on this discussion. It was an interesting concept.
I stick to the clicker and treats and play for rewards.

[t.lesniak]

Wolfy Dog wrote "IMHO the only thing he "earns" is more stress while a mating would be what he is after."

That's exactly what I thought . Then I thought, "is there more going on that was edited out of the video?" Then the whole idea kinda grossed me out.
Not a suitable "reward". Even if it did work. I dont see that it did.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by wildo

Fanny Gott is a highly successful dog trainer competing in FCI World championship agility and obedience events. I'd like to think she knows a little something about dog training. This dog is obviously very interested in the female- yet he continues to work through his agility training. I'm sure not every dog could accomplish the same. It's a foundation of NILIF and positive reinforcement training that allows this to happen. I don't think the dog is being rewarded for lack of focus, that doesn't make any sense from a training perspective. The dog did his job (nose target on the plank, in this case) and is allowed a high value reward.

But really, I do agree that people will see what they want to see- myself included. I think it's a great example of NILIF and in my opinion it shows an owner working through an issue without correcting the crap out of her dog.

Personally I could care less what certifications she has, my comment was in regards to this dog in this situation using this training manner.

No where did I say or imply she should correct the crap out of him. I simply said he seemed to be happily rewarded with the ball tug toy, and I would be curious to see the difference with a normal reward vs allowing him to behave so inappropriately towards another members dog as a release. I don't see it as a reward. Everytime he loses focus, he is rewarded by running to the female and going nuts.

Clearly, the ball.tug reward worked as he went back to doing the exact same exercise he did before/after wanting to mount the female. So I would be curious to see several minutes of honest video of that training/reward method to see why it wasn't working. I really see no progress from beginning to end of the video, in fact, he's only getting more amped up for the female after the few minutes of video, which is IMHO why they cut the video when he started air humping. I'll bet he attempted to mount her shortly thereafter, which was edited out.

[wildo]

I think you guys would be sorely disappointed with the "edited out" content. I bet you it is nothing more than a leash getting tight and the dog walking away. Highly doubt there was any humping ([edit]- doubt there was any breeding, that is- yes, there was air humping) happening there.

[t.lesniak]

The dogs I train have a few positive reinforcers. But 98% of the time it is a good ole ball-on-a-rope. When I give my physical and verbal cues that its time to "work" (Ob train), the dog knows there is a reward involved. It comes from me. And it's in their best interest to join in the game. Sniffing is not allowed whether it is the ground another dog or whatever.
I have never had to "correct the crap out of" nor "correct the bejesus out of" any dogs to get them to focus on the work.
It's all in the foundation. Which I would say,the Border Collie featured, is lacking.

[wildo]

Again, the point of the video is how one R+ trainer dealt with a problem behavior. From her blog (which was linked in the video description):

Having three girls in heat in the house can be a challenge with three intact males. This is the first time that I have noticed that Epic really found girls interesting, and a new world seemed to open for him. Instead of trying to survive these days, we’re making the most out of this high value reward. Bitches in heat will be allowed in Swedish agility trials from this year, so it’s good to be prepared.

It's really great that you guys have dogs that are able to work next to a bitch in heat without going crazy. Apparently this trainer wasn't so "lucky" with her dog, and some training was required. Certainly there are things that distract your dogs, and you've had to use one method or another to teach the dog to leave it and work through it.

This trainer employed a method of "if you do what I want, you might get what you want." This is no different than rewarding with treats, ball, praise, etc. In fact- as the text in the video directly states, value was built for the nose target because a higher than normal reward was paired with the activity.

Regardless of how you feel about using a bitch in season as a reward, this is simple psychology. Pair a higher reward with a behavior, and the behavior will be more likely reproduced. This is the Premake Principle in action.

(And it doesn't really matter if you can't see the dog is performing the work more enthusiastically or not- I promise that the world-level trainer is quite aware of if her dog is more enthusiastically performing or not. I doubt she's just lucky enough to happen to get to that level of competition without such skill.)