Compulsion training/desensitizing

[Suka]

Jean, that place looks pretty fun - and only 40 minutes outside of Chicago. Now if only I had a dog to train I would definitely check that out.

[t.lesniak]

compulsion would work on all the behaviors on your list. Yes even fireworks. (I dont mean like the video posted. I mean like normal, neighborhood, fireworks off in the distance.)

But you have to pick your battles. You cant get after them for everything.
Many people dont take the time to balance out the use of corrections with positive reinforcement, and just plain fun time/bonding. Owners end up being viewed as bullies.

Knocking down or jumping over a baby gate at my house is a BIG no-no. My dogs stay behind a 24 inch gate because they are *compelled* to do so.

[Blanketback]

Originally Posted by Zeeva

Also, and this is a separate issue, but which things are preference based and which things are required etiquette?

marking during walks
stalking mini prey
barking at strangers near the house

Sorry Amina, I forgot to answer this part: No marking. Absolutely no stalking. The barking is ok, if it happens, but I stop it after a couple of woofs. Those are my rules at the moment.

[Gharrissc]

I think that's a key point. I've seen many people who have dogs that clearly don't like being around them after a while. I expect my dogs to listen,but also make the time for fun things as well.

Originally Posted by t.lesniak

But you have to pick your battles. You cant get after them for everything.
Many people dont take the time to balance out the use of corrections with positive reinforcement, and just plain fun time/bonding. Owners end up being viewed as bullies.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Suka, we should find you a foster dog to take there for classes! I would love to go to a place like that.

Like others have said, you can do anything with compulsion. I can do it with people too. And people would call me a bully and I would get them to do what I wanted to do and they would hate every second of it (I know, because I have experienced bosses who were true bullies). Or, I could have a relationship with people, and encourage them to do things, remove reactance, replace it with excitement to learn and do, and most would want to achieve more (I have worked in places like that) and even offer new, great ideas and behaviors.

The second thing is what I want to see in my co-workers and in my dogs. I don't want to walk into a room at work and have it go quiet, I don't want to walk into a room at home and see ears go down and eyes averted. I use corrections over big things, and use my brain for everything else. Many training tools are a shortcut to thinking.

[gagsd]

Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN

I use corrections over big things, and use my brain for everything else.

[RowdyDogs]

I don't ever use compulsion for fear issues, or even non-necessary discomfort issues (when the health of the dog is at play then I use whatever method is necessary). I would not use compulsion for the fireworks, vacuum or hair dryer. You would probably be successful in getting your dog to accept them but I feel that you run the risk of damaging the trust your dog has in you rather than building it, particularly if there is a physical reason that he doesn't like it (for example, some vacuums emit a high-pitched noise that we can't really hear but can be uncomfortable and annoying to dogs).

For things like knocking over the baby gate and entering places they shouldn't, I use a mixture. I will correct the dog if he does it, but I also strive to use positive methods to teach him to ignore it. The exact balance depends on the dog. I find that using positive training creates a more reliable obedience there even if you're not paying attention.

As far as the leash stuff goes, I don't allow any chasing/stalking or barking at people no matter what. I'll allow a reasonable amount of marking when we first start out on a walk but I expect the dog to settle in and quit it pretty quickly. And of course if I have the dog in heel, then none of that is allowed.

[Elaine]

Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN

Like others have said, you can do anything with compulsion. I can do it with people too. And people would call me a bully and I would get them to do what I wanted to do and they would hate every second of it (I know, because I have experienced bosses who were true bullies). Or, I could have a relationship with people, and encourage them to do things, remove reactance, replace it with excitement to learn and do, and most would want to achieve more (I have worked in places like that) and even offer new, great ideas and behaviors.

The second thing is what I want to see in my co-workers and in my dogs. I don't want to walk into a room at work and have it go quiet, I don't want to walk into a room at home and see ears go down and eyes averted. I use corrections over big things, and use my brain for everything else. Many training tools are a shortcut to thinking.

Wow. When did correcting your dog become a dirty word? When did compulsion become the same as beating your dog?

I can't disagree with you more on this. Compulsion has it's place and it's a necessary part of a well behaved dog's life. Nobody is saying that you should beat the crap out of your dog and then you have to live with a miserable dog. Corrections come in all types of ways from a very minor verbal correction to a severe collar correction. You must always balance correction with praise and that's what I alway say.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

As soon as I believe that people on the internet can teach people via word and text as well as a a trainer recommended by someone like Suzanne Clothier and as soon as I believe that people can explain how to use compulsion well and properly and well and properly timed (and not for every little thing that can be taught in other ways) I will continue to advocate that people use other methods so that what I recommend doesn't create a misunderstanding that results in a dog that is being mishandled.

So yes - I would use positives on most of those things listed and with many years and many dogs would have a good clue on when and how to administer an aversive as needed for the last 5 if they were important to me, once the dog knew what was expected. But I wouldn't have a clue as to how to explain that to someone online so that I knew the dog would have a good chance at fairness.

But if all I use is compulsion to train anything and everything, I think that's not the best way to do things, particularly not via the Internet.

[Suka]

I am in agreement completely with Jean.

I cannot simply write as many words here to give you a full explanation but at the very least, I can ask all of you to consider that they don't train dolphins to search out underwater mines with a collar and leash. They don't train marine mammals at Seaworld with compulsion. It's done with operant conditioning and positive reinforcement. Using compulsion and corrections has it's place, but it's the easy way out. We know better now.