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Old 12-19-2012, 08:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RowdyDogs View Post
That was kind of my point...you don't know how many times, and you should have quit after the first time he got it right. Or at least, that is what I would do. I meant for a dog who really likes training I would still keep it to about 5 minutes. For a dog who is scared, you might only be able to work for 30-60 seconds at a time at first.

He can probably learn to really enjoy this, but you're going to have to build up his confidence in baby steps. When you have a training session that ends in him cowering, he's not learning and he's obviously not having a good experience. If you keep it short enough that he doesn't have a chance to go over threshold, he'll be able to learn and he'll gain confidence and begin to think training is fun rather than scary.
That actually makes a lot of since and its probably my fault as I enjoy training and I am still used t Smokey he will go for an hour enthusiastically until he gets it. He works for the praise not food or toys. I thought I was slowing down with him. Didn't realize they should be that short.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:02 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I brought the clicker out since you mentioned it I forgot I had it. I researched and bought it before I even got him. Just a minute ago i brought it out he was excited, so I guess he remembered it I tossed the treat and clicked while he was looking away and when I clicked he looked at me and he got his treats he was excited the whole times i did it for about a minute since i wasn't asking him to do anything I was just clicking and treating. I guess that might be it I will just have to learn to work better with it and get a treat pouch instead of trying to hold them all like before. I just thought i had to be perfect at the clicking for him to understand the action I was trying to get him to do and I knew I wasn't getting the timing perfect, so I quit.

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Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee View Post
I tend to decide to learn a new trading method if I know it will help my dog. Just read up and watch the videos and you will be able to clicker train, for your dog.

If you are late or early with the click, that's part of the genius of the method! If I click early, the dog gets a treat. If I click late, the dog gets a treat. So my dog keeps thinking they are brilliant and keep trying, and I just think that was/early/late and work on my timing. As long as my pup is still there trying to earn the treats then its all good.


If you have the treats right there, and the dog right there, then you will get the treat to your dog in time. That's why the clicker works actually. All the clicker is is a 'marker' that actually is a bridge between the behavior YOU want (a sit?) And the reward the dog wants/earned (cheese?). Initially to help the dog learn the method the time between the click/treat should be fairly quick so the dog learns to link the sound to their behavior and the reward. But later when training progresses the time can increase for all of us and the dog still understands and learns.

:-)
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Smokey is that one of a kind dog. I
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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That actually makes a lot of since and its probably my fault as I enjoy training and I am still used t Smokey he will go for an hour enthusiastically until he gets it. He works for the praise not food or toys. I thought I was slowing down with him. Didn't realize they should be that short.
I think that learning to quit when you're ahead can actually be one of the hardest things to get as a trainer, so don't feel bad. It's really easy to do, because we look at training differently than the dog does.

Your goal should be to end every training session on a good note, and ideally with the dog wanting more. So that means that if Chief is starting to really get it and seems interested and excited, stop! You won't want to, because you're thinking, "Woohoo, he's finally getting it! Look how much he's enjoying it!" And he is...but then he'll lose focus or get overwhelmed and you wind up quitting when he's not really that into it.

If you quit when he's excited, then the next training session is going to make him think of that. He'll approach it from a happier standpoint--"Oh, I remember this! That was so much fun!"

If you quit when he's not excited but not cowering yet, at the next session he'll be like, "Oh, this. Okay." And he'll get into it, but you're starting from a lower level of interest so you have further to go to get him really engaged.

And if you quit when he's cowering (which at that point is the only option, of course), the next session will start with him unsure and scared, and you're basically starting over each time.

So that's the mindset you need to work on--end every session at a point that is going to set you up to start the next session in a good place! And remember, we're talking very short periods of time here right now.

If you do make a mistake and go too long, don't get upset about it either. Just try to learn from your mistake and remember that you have plenty of time to make up for it. Also, pay close attention to his body language when you work with him. I would be surprised if he really melts down out of nowhere--most likely, he is giving you some subtle cues that he is getting stressed out. They can be really difficult to see, but if you learn to read his body language really well, you can hopefully stop before he becomes so overwhelmed that he has to cower for a long time.

Also, I love clickers for fearful dogs like Chief. It mostly just takes practice to get the timing right.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
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That makes perfect since while reading what you wrote I was like that's me. I get excited and want to keep going just a little more. Like I just did a bit before I read what you wrote I was just clicking and treating while he was laying down he was wagging his tail happy until I tried to get him to come closer to me to do a sit and he cowered and went to the living room.

Every time before I grab that clicker I am going to have to think baby steps. I figured before I quit the last time that I should keep going, because he was so excited to train, but I just gave up. He is a very smart dog. Your right it is so hard to quit while your ahead.

When I taught him bow he got it in like 10 minutes and was doing it for days without me asking so he could get his treat. Then once I was trying to reset him, because he did a down instead of a bow, so I moved and called him to me and did a bow which was the signal for him to bow and that's when he freaked. It's like if he doesn't get it the first time he gets upset.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:28 AM   #25 (permalink)
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You need to look at it from the dog's perspective.
these tricks are just that to you, however those tricks are communication to the dog. The giving the paw is a juvenile action , used as a calming signal. The bow is a play gesture . He is not in his mind communicating play.
And then he feels your frustration
and then he really really does not want to play with you, and goes in to avoidance.
Do things with the dog that give him a opportunity to bond - walking together is a great one . Each time he is "with" you showing you a connection, looking at you , then you smile and give him the good boy. Less treats , more YOU. The dog may have had a shaky start and is wary , he doesn't have that security with you yet, may never have totally. You have to appreciate the dog for what he is , not for what you want him to become .
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:37 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Less treats , more YOU. The dog may have had a shaky start and is wary , he doesn't have that security with you yet, may never have totally. You have to appreciate the dog for what he is , not for what you want him to become .
What a wonderful way to put it, particularly the last sentence. I'm all about the treats, but we should always remember that treats are just a tool, and it's really all about our relationship with the dog. All the treats in the world won't help much if that basic trust isn't there.

OP, I think you might really benefit from learning as much as you can about the way dogs think. The book The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson might really help you, if you haven't read it yet. Karen Pryor's stuff is also really good and can be a bit more focused on training specific behaviors.

I really think that once you establish a better understanding with this dog, the trust will grow. My GSD was similar when I first got him, and he's fantastic now. My Wooby heeler was even worse (you couldn't even look at her while speaking or she'd roll over and cry then go hide when I first got her), and now she knows all her basic commands and enjoys training--we're even doing some very basic nosework exercises! And I should note that she was 11 years old when I got her, so I'm guessing Chief is going to be a lot easier.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:03 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I hope so. He has gotten alot better the only thing he hasnt gotten better about is taking food off the table or tearing stuff up that had food in it. Like we did ginger bread houses and he tore up the cardboard box and it didn't have and food actually on it. Today he tore up an empty chip bag that wasnt thrown away by my boyfriends daughter. We always put the trash can up in the bedroom when we leave, but he always seems sometime to tear up a napkin something. He gets fed 4 cups a day, so he gets plenty of food.

I know he knows he nt supposed to. I left food on the table once went in the bedroom and cracked the door. He walked towards the table looked back at the door then as he was abut to take the food he looked at the door again then in midts mouth opening i opened the door an said ah ah ah. He does it with empty plates on the table to he wait until i leave and follows me half way then goes back to lick the plate and he peeks around the corner to see if I'm watching. He wont grab it if im there, but as soon as i leave its a bee line for it. How can I solve this food stealing and his tearing up stuff for no reason.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:13 PM   #28 (permalink)
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That sounds like a great book. I think I will order it and after I read it I will have my boyfriend read it. Thanks! This is something that we can both use to help training better. He is a great dog, but is pretty stubborn. He follows me everywhere. I can't move on the couch without him flying up ready to follow me it drives me nuts sometimes tripping over them. I tell him to go lay down sometimes he does, but most of the time he will go in the direction I'm pointing then will make a circle and continue to follow he he does that a few times then will finally lay down then do a huge sigh then sometime get right back up after he lays down.

Its this book correct
Amazon Amazon
I am going to order it right now as soon as I know its the right one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RowdyDogs View Post
What a wonderful way to put it, particularly the last sentence. I'm all about the treats, but we should always remember that treats are just a tool, and it's really all about our relationship with the dog. All the treats in the world won't help much if that basic trust isn't there.

OP, I think you might really benefit from learning as much as you can about the way dogs think. The book The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson might really help you, if you haven't read it yet. Karen Pryor's stuff is also really good and can be a bit more focused on training specific behaviors.

I really think that once you establish a better understanding with this dog, the trust will grow. My GSD was similar when I first got him, and he's fantastic now. My Wooby heeler was even worse (you couldn't even look at her while speaking or she'd roll over and cry then go hide when I first got her), and now she knows all her basic commands and enjoys training--we're even doing some very basic nosework exercises! And I should note that she was 11 years old when I got her, so I'm guessing Chief is going to be a lot easier.
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also really love my 4 precious guinea pigs.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:28 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Yes, that is the right book. Go ahead and order it!

I don't think Chief is stubborn, just that you guys aren't communicating on the same level. I have met plenty of dogs who jump up every time I move, and it is a lack of confidence. Most likely, Chief knows you are safe, and he wants to be with you. His fear is that you're going to leave him, so he feels the need to be with you no matter what.

GSDs are also kind of "velcro" dogs, IME. They're bred to protect their herd and their family, so they always need to know where their charges are. My Hector is always that way; I am pretty sure I have literally never been home and had him in the other room, except maybe when my boyfriend and I sleep separately (snoring LOL) and Hector stations himself halfway between us, where he can see the doorways of both the rooms we are in. That's just to be expected with this breed, IMO.

But it sounds like he is maybe insecure and excessively clingy; establishing a routine and building a relationship will help. He may always want to be with you, but he shouldn't always need to be climbing on you and tripping you up!

Also, "counter surfing" is hard to fix. Hector knows not to jump up and get trash, food on the table, etc. when we're there, but the reward is greater than any correction we can do when we're gone. We fix his tendency to jump up and eat food on the counter by management--locking trash cans, food on top of refrigerator or in the pantry, etc. Dogs are refreshingly honest and will almost always do what rewards them the most, and it's hard to compete with them jumping up and getting a loaf of bread (or whatever) when no one is around to correct them.

I saw your post about nosework as well and sent you a PM, by the way. I think you and Chief have a lot of promise if you guys can get on the same page.
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Abutiu "Abi"-ACD puppy and hopeful future SAR dog!
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I ordered the book I am excited I don't typically read, so this will be the first in awhile. He is defiantly a Velcro dog. I am also curious Chief loves me and my boyfriend a lot we both feed him he will one day if I'm working and I do at night always and when I am home. When he hugs me standing up especially sitting down Chief growls at him. Ill say hush and he will starts doing a whining/groan. I guess I can see him being afraid I am going to leave he was locked up by himself most of his life. I guess it takes someone else saying stuff for me to realize and make since out of it

We try getting everything put up before we leave, every once in awhile he will get into something.

He is such a lover. When I first got him he didn't really much cuddle at all wasn't really sure what to do. He always flea bites me to its really weird. I was told that was a grooming thing.
__________________
I love my two boys Smokey and Chief.
Smokey is that one of a kind dog. I
also really love my 4 precious guinea pigs.

Last edited by frillint1; 12-21-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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