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Zoey's training

10K views 114 replies 13 participants last post by  Nickyb 
#1 ·
I wanted to dedicate a thread on Zoey's training and progression. If you don't know Zoey, she's my belgium mali/gsd mix rescue that was adopted on 4/29/12 It has been a loonnnngggg road with her and she's been doing great, until the past week or so.

I would like to start by saying she's off to her consultation tomorrow for training, we've been having problems with her nipping and constantly mouthing. She got my buddy in the arm this weekend, i went out to get him during the evening, he was behind me and i bent down to grab her by the collar to push her back and she want right for his arm and ripped his shirt. No blood but it was a fairly hard bite and ripped his sweater, i had him give her two treats when they were both inside and she seemed fine, she's met him before and showered him with kisses in the past. I think this was more of a protective "hey, who the ef are you" type of bite but still, NOT OK to put her mouth on anyone unless i give it the ok.

Also my brother was playing catch with a football with his buddy outside, she was the monkey in the middle and she nipped him in the arse.... I understand how this would set her up to do something wrong in which I told my brother to keep her inside if your going to tease her, but still not ok.

Her progress with dog socialization has stopped because my neighborhood has a few off leash dogs that like to bombard us during our walks.... now when she see's them she goes bezerk where-as before she would heel nicely and ignore most dogs.

The fact that Zoey WILL bite is the scary part, I don't want these nips to get any worse. Even with all these quirks, I still love her to death... I just hope we can fix these issues...

She is set up for tomorrow with Steve @ K-9 Top Performance | The best performance your dog can give.
I plan to enroll her into "K9 camp" where you pay extra but you get more then regular daycare. "K-9 Camp is a more concentrated structured "daycare". Your dog will be trained and socialized with other dogs all throughout the day. We will work on the basic commands that you are working on in obedience, as well as walking on the leash. We spend a lot of time teaching them the proper manners needed for socialization with other dogs and people."

I think this would be a great way to start her road to progress because I just don't have the knowledge in training dogs like I thought I did. I think once a week at k9 camp will be great and then see how she is, whether she needs more training and socialization. I will keep this thread updated
and your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

At the end of the day, I will never give this dog up. I gave her up once to try for a better life only to return in worse condition. She is mine forever and I will do what ever it takes.
 
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#83 ·
I understand. I really had meant it just for Steve. I wanted to save you the cost of a private visit and I could see Zoey with Steve there behaving perfectly. If you want to pm me - that's fine too. Good luck with your filming.
 
#84 ·
Quick update.

Nothing really has been accomplished, with the past snow storms, it's hard to get all that pent up energy released. We've only done k-9 and haven't been back for the obedience yet. I've been super busy over the weekend so I just don't have the time but we still train basic obedience at the house.

My brothers friend hasn't been over and she hasn't gone after anybody, but that's because we've kept her afar from new comers. I just really don't trust her with anybody now.
 
#85 ·
Winter is really tough on training and dogs like kids are affected by the storms - they get "cabin fever" fast - probably why Zoey acted up - you're doing all you can -and I would be careful also with any visitors. You may want to end her in house obedience session with a game of tug as a reward.
 
#86 ·
I'm also seriously thinking about an e-collar. She like's to put our arms/legs in her mouth and bite down pretty hard, play bites are over excessive and she wont stop unless you smack her with a pillow or kick her out the room for a time out... let her back in and she's back at it, also the airbite's/air snaps aren't getting any better. Not being able to drain her energy, i feel like she does this more often because of that. I've tried every method I could find with no results, she's just a big puppy stuck in her ways.
 
#87 ·
The e-collar could backfire in that it could either get Zoey more charged up or into fear/aggression issues if she identified the shock with coming from you. I have used an e-collar mainly for off leash work and to train my dog from running deer. I wouldn't use it for this type of situtation. What you may want to try is the pennies in a can - it is an older method, but may work. Put pennies in an empty pop can - tape over the hole. When she bites - shake the can. Also you could try a squirt bottle or a water pistol with lemon juice or vinegar mixed in water. Same idea - only squirt her mouth. I haven't used either of these, but they may be worth trying. From what I understand about malinois, the air bites are common - done when the dog is excited.
 
#88 ·
Air bites are very common in Malinois, and I don't mind it. The thing that I mind is when she's very passionate and want's to give you kisses, she lick your face and then SNAP right at your face. She rarely makes contact and if she does, it's nothing like a bite but still, I don't like it. Her play biting is the biggest thing, she was making great improvements on it before all the snow hit. Now I'll get a nice CHOMP on my thigh with her looking at me in a playful way like "Oh, what cha gunna do?" n then fly around the room 37 times jump up and latch on again.

To be honest it's really funny now that I think of it but it's not acceptable. I'll try the penny's in a can method tonight. It's tough because I can't always have it in my pocket like an e-collar remote but i'll give it a shotl.
 
#89 ·
I can understand that but she will also need to wear the e-collar and it has to be charged - so there are drawbacks to both. You could try with your voice alone. Say sharply when she acts up: No, Sit, Now! and if she doesn't, just gives you that look, grab her by the collar and force into the sit/stay - then praise and release. If she repeats her act, do the same again. If you have an e- collar and have used it, that is where you could use it because you would be using it to have respond to the sit command. You may want to pm Lou Castle because he is the expert on the e-collar training.
 
#90 ·
Full update as of 3/15/13:

Zoey has been doing good but there hasn't been any progression with K9 camp. She'll tolerate some dogs/ play with others/ and hate others. Small dogs that run by her, forget about it. I overheard that graduating from K9-camp basically means they can keep her out in Doggie daycare with no leash. IMHO $40 a week is a waste since she hasn't gotten any better or any worse, the same response I get each week is "She was awesome today, crazy girl but awesome."

Walking her around other dogs- She does awesome walking WITH another dog along side of her, always have. I walked her alongside a very dog-aggressive female GSD and she was fantastic as well alongside many other dogs.

Walking- No problems with our walk unless we pass by a BARKING dog. If she can see the dog barking either behind the fence or on the street, she gets extremely riled up and is hard to control. Example- about a 5-10 lbs lap dog was on leash yapping at Zoey as we were passing, which got Zoey extremely riled up and vocal (not a bark, hard to explain). I got her in a down and I moved two inches, she army crawled 2 feet, move another inch and there's the army crawl again, she's nuts! If the dog is behind the fence or in the house, she is perfectly fine. She might get a little excited but a quick correction and shes fine.
I'm not entirely concerned with this since spring is around the corner and I'll be doing lots of hiking/running in high dog concentrated areas.

Car rides- Horrible. If she see's a dog, she gets EXTREMELY aggressive, more then any other time. Very hard to control since I'm driving and a crate is out of the question. She jumps from front seat to back seat constantly and I plan on picking up a champion harness and strap her in. The aggression, I'm not so sure about.

People in home- She's been doing pretty good in the house but we haven't had to many strangers besides my little brother and his friends. He's been bringing his friends in with no issues, the only issue is with his friend Tyler that she just hates, I don't know why either. This weekend is going to be either a HUGE stepping stone or a bust. My mother is getting married so a lot of people will be over the house this weekend, my step sisters flew up from NC although she has met them in the past, she's been good with them. My other step sister will be coming tonight and her boyfriend tomorrow which she's met and has been good with. Also my mother is having a bunch of her girlfriends over tonight which she's met some, so hopefully everything goes smoothly.
I'm praying she stays calm but I will have her on a leash and the slightest bit of aggression she's getting corrected and crated. I will do my best to introduce with treats outside of the house on leash but with the cold weather, some might get a little aggravated.
 
#91 ·
Your new avator photo of Zoey is really eye-catching. Thanks for the update and good luck this weekend - you seem to have a good game plan. Or you could relax and board her out with Steve this weekend - especially with the weather. For the car rides - well, my Aussie was terrible - his previous owner had let him and her other dogs in the cargo area of her SUV just bark and carry on - she had a grate and the noise didn't bother her. So I understand what you are going thru- the harness will contain her - I got the one that used the seat belt latch from Foster & Smith and my Aussie was 85 lbs. But the barking - well, my Aussie was the same way, and I tried everything - stopping the car, correcting him, so that is where I did use the e-collar (his previous owner had used it and she had told me he had a great respect for electricity) - it just took one time - he started his act - I said "quiet" - he blew it off - I pressed the remote - peaceful silence. You had mentioned before that Zoey's foster parents had used the e-collar, you may want to ask them how they trained her. Or you could try the head halter, it is supposed to have a calming affect. She still would have to wear the harness for the car seat restrainer. For the other dogs, well, my Sting would have flunked out also - he would end up being the oldest dog in K9 camp. I guess there comes to a point where one has to cut losses - know what the dog can do (walk side by side) and accept what the dog can't do - like little dogs coming straight at them, and being loose around all sorts of dogs.
 
#92 ·
Thanks Mary, I've been stressing out on what to do with her as you can see and it really helps getting a neutral perspective from someone, and for that I really appreciate it.

As of right now, I REALLY want to get her to a point where not all my brothers friends/my friends/anyone who walks through the door are scared of her. In the beginning, I always said how if she didn't like other dogs, it really isn't a big deal to me, but I never agreed to any other aggression. The biggest thing that scares everyone is the look she gives you, she basically looks through your soul, I'll try to take a picture of it lol. She's SUCH a sweet dog when she's around people she likes, it's just the outbursts were so unexpected and unreadable. Once it gets a bit warmer, she'll be coming with me everywhere I go for socialization with humans and everything else, I'll just need to think of a way to leave her unattended in the car without tearing up my leather :(

As for the seat belt, I've been looking at this and a few people on here recommended it
Champion Canine Seat Belt System
Probably will pick that up soon.

The foster used both, head halter and an E collar. Zoey HATED the head halter but responded nicely to the E-collar which is why I recommended it, I just don't want to use it at the wrong time. I'll write her an email after this.

I'm going to have a chat with Steve this coming Thursday, I've spent over $700 on her training in 5 months with little results, and I'm beginning to think I'm being played. I don't know exactly what they do with her, how long they have her out with other dogs or anything. If she's playing with dogs getting worn out all day long, its worth it. But if shes out there for a total of 2 hours and the rest in a kennel, it's not worth it IMO. They are all very nice at the kennel, LOVE LOVE LOVE Zoey and I like them all, but I can't be throwing money out the window neither.
 
#93 ·
After writing that, I just bought the champion seat belt system.... Hopefully that will contain her enough where shes not trying to sit on my lap or put her butt on my shoulder :)
 
#94 ·
It will work - it looks just like the kind I used on my aussie. At first - he lunged and but still held and your Zoey isn't that big. After a while, he didn't even need it on. You may want to put an old rug or thick blanket on the seat and even the seat back, or there are dog cover seats that can be bought that will fit your car. Yes, I agree with you that is a lot of money and it is time to have a serious talk with Steve. He has done wonders with her, but no trainer is a miracle worker and there are some traits that cannot be changed. Zoey is a mali, and honestly, my Sting wouldn't be welcoming to anyone who comes in the door, even if he knows them. And a lot of people are afraid of him, that is natural, when I walked my dobe, people used to cross the street. It is possible that the people that Zoey has a bad reaction to, are afraid of malis and gsds, they can hide the fear from us humans, but a dog will pick up on it and that makes her insecure and fearful.
 
#95 ·
Well the wedding is done and the house has settled. Everyone has left and I couldn't be happier with Zoey. She did not display an ounce of aggression or even a bark. My step sister had some friends over and when I came home, they had Zoey upstairs in the living room and she was just hanging out like she knew them forever. She was lovey-dovey with everyone that came over including my step sisters boyfriend, even gave him a goodbye lick lol Zoey was the sweetest dog this weekend and acted a lot like my Princess did, extremely calm and compassionate towards everyone. :)
 
#97 ·
Hopefully this will continue, I first started her off on leash and noticed she wasn't focusing on anyone, really just me when she was around everyone. Once I seen her calm, I let her off leash and it helped a ton that everyone that came over loved dogs and listened to my rules with her. Just wanted to share a picture from the weekend, Zoey just wanted her hair done, that's all :)

 
#98 ·
Such a sweet photo! Congrats to you - you had your game plan all thought out ahead of time and all the players cooperated. Yes - I agree - it takes teamwork -you and Zoey can't do it all alone if the guests won't follow your rules.
 
#99 ·
Just chiming back in, haven't updated in a while so here we go.

Took Zoey to the vet shortly after my last update with bad news which can be found here.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/247082-routine-vet-visit-gone-bad.html
She was diagnosed with Ehrlichiosis and is on Doxy until the end of the month. She hasn't shown any side effects but we have been taking it easy.

Yesterday, we went on a 3 mile walk around the lake which I talked about earlier that has TONS of people and dogs. She didn't growl once, even when there was a little yappy dog right in her face on a long leash yapping away. Very proud of her for that, although she was so excited or anxious that she was pulling quite a bit, add the new smells and the waves crashing against the shore, she had a lot to take in. I didn't take my camera with me but Maegan snapped a picture of Zoey sitting on a picnic table and I checking out a goose that wouldn't stop quacking lol She was very confused and gave it a couple of classic head tilts :)


I'll be dropping her off Thursday @ K9 camp since she hasn't been in over two weeks, I'll have a talk with Steve as well as long as he is there. I don't plan on doing the obedience classes with her since 1) he's keeping us in beginner's when she is the best dog in there (even around the other dogs) and 2) I understand working her around other dogs but I can do that at home for free.

I also bought her this, Champion Canine Seat Belt System , a seat belt harness that keeps her confined :) She tolerates it but still, when she see's another dog, she get's super aggressive while in the car. I talked to Steve about this and he said it's a typical shepherd/mali thing, and to crate her if possible.

Where getting there... it's slow, but it's progress.
 
#100 ·
Wonderful news! Zoey really did great on her first lake path walk. The next time you take her there, she won't be so excited and pull so much. The real life practice she is getting is so much better than just keeping her in classes. I agree with you and also she would probably get bored doing the same class. Glad the car harness is working out. I am sorry about her tick disease and I can imagine that you were pretty stressed but you did catch it in time by taking her in for her regular checkups. It could have been so much worse and costly otherwise. Maegan took a lovely photo of you and Zoey.
 
#102 ·
Thank you, I'm really proud of Zoey now. I'll be working her around other dogs more often, very excited!

Nick,
Glad Zoey is feeling better. Keep up the great work.

Just want to comment on the "car aggression".

Kira used to do this. I couldn't pass another dog without her getting all puffed up, growling, and biting the window.

I can't stress how valuable the "leave it" command is.
What I did was set her up in a position to see a passing dog. This could be as simple as sitting near a park, where the there's a good chance a dog will walk by.

As each dog passed, I gave her a firm "leave it", distracted, and praise.
She eventually got the idea, and now just watches as they pass.
Thanks Anthony, I find that sometimes we will drive by a dog, and she'll be fine. She'll look at it and not a peep comes out. Other times, usually when we are parked, she wants to jump out of the car and tear its head off. We do incorporate the "leave it" command quite often, just when its in the car, it goes right out the window lol

Good idea btw! I think we will sit in the back seat at the lake and just watch everyone pass by. I'll bring some treats as well to take off the initial edge :) She's such a hard headed dog, when it comes to try and snap her out of it, it can be a bit of a challenge.

I forgot to mention that my neighbor with his 2 male intact Mali's invited us to walk with him and train on weekend's. Should be awesome for Zoey to walk side by side other dogs and get her used to odd objects like his wheelchair (He has MS and is bound to a electric scooter, all while training 2 Belgian Mali's lol). Plus it would make for a great photo :)

Thanks!
 
#101 ·
Nick,
Glad Zoey is feeling better. Keep up the great work.

Just want to comment on the "car aggression".

Kira used to do this. I couldn't pass another dog without her getting all puffed up, growling, and biting the window.

I can't stress how valuable the "leave it" command is.
What I did was set her up in a position to see a passing dog. This could be as simple as sitting near a park, where the there's a good chance a dog will walk by.

As each dog passed, I gave her a firm "leave it", distracted, and praise.
She eventually got the idea, and now just watches as they pass.
 
#104 ·
Well Zoey and I went on hikes both Saturday and Sunday with a few of my friends and Nikita, the bluenose pitbull. Decent weather and pleased with how she did overall.

Saturday, we went to "Lynn Woods" which is infamous for mountain bikers, one of the best courses in New England. A lot of dogs were out but I was surprised at the amount of off leash dogs there were. I'd say at least 50% of the dogs were off leash and among those, 50% weren't the friendliest and even growled and came storming at us. Zoey did excellent, she obviously perked up but I put her in a sit and moved in front of her ready for anything. A lot of the friendly off leashed dogs ran right up to us, one even licked Zoey in the nose.

Sunday, we went to "Break-heart Reservation". Tons of dogs and almost all dogs were on leash which was a delight, Zoey didn't make any sort of aggressive movement at all! There were a couple off leash but they ran up to Zoey, sniffed her butt and then walked along side of us like we were all best friends haha. I was able to snap some pictures but it's pretty tough getting my camera out of my bag with Zoey on leash and try to snap a couple of pics but here they are!

The girls walking side by side, they pretty much walked an inch apart of eachother both days, side by side :)


Me and Zoey


again


Us on Sunday


again, wish my buddy got all of her in the photo




Annnndd Nikita








 
#106 ·
Also forgot to mention, my buddy who came with me was the one I went up to Maine with a year ago and Zoey went after his father.

my friends holding both girls haha
they refuse to look at the camera.


 
#109 ·
Thank you! Also she's starting to get used to the seat belt harness, still get aggressive when seeing other dogs but I've been taking her in the car more often. Now when I go on errands, I can take her with, without her destroying my car lol
 
#110 ·
Another quick update because I'm proud of my girl.

We went on another couple of hikes this week/weekend. First hike was with just me, Maegan and Zoey. Whenever we pass another dog, I'll put her in a heel and she'll walk nicely next to me. I don't let her go up to other dogs and sniff because I don't know what will happen, and when I did it in the past, 50% of the time, the other dog snap, growled, barked and lunged at Zoey. With that being said, she did amazing, there was a couple of dogs that growled lunged barked upon passing, Zoey didn't react AT ALL, not a flinch, not a huff or a puff, nothing.... Such a good baby.

Then we went for a hike with Nikita the pitbull and owner, and Maegan brought Toby the "Jug". She gets along GREAT with Nikita now, when they first met, they actually got into a fight, but now they walk side by side the entire time. Zoey isn't a fan of smaller dogs, especially those that bark, so I wanted her to get used to them so I had Maegan bring her sisters dog, a Jug. (JRT and pug mix) He's very submissive and was actually scared of both Zoey and Nikita, but they both went for a quick sniff and hello, and walked away for our hike. Zoey would sniff him every now and then to say hello throughout the hike and didn't show an ounce of aggression. At the end of the day I let them mingle a bit longer then normal and he got down in a play bow and wanted to play lol I put a hold on that because Zoey is ROUGH, especially with playing so next time, I'll bring her muzzle just in case.

Just wanted to share a quick update :)

Also today is the last day of the doxy... praying her test comes back clean.
 
#111 ·
Zoey is doing so great! This is wonderful to read. And my Sting is now hearing when he sees another dog and wants to leave all his training behind "If Zoey can do it, you can" - magic words :) I would do the same as you - the walking side by side - that is the best but free play that can get out of hand in a hurry and with the size difference the little dog can get very easily hurt and the big dog gets the blame. Hope Zoey's test results come back all cleared up.
 
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