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Old 09-12-2012, 09:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Constant collar corrections while heeling?

My good friend ponyfarm sent me this video last night. It's very interesting. I wondered if anyone could explain the training technique while heeling (she does it a couple times throughout the video). She issues constant collar pops while the dog is heeling. This is very strange to me... I've definitely never seen anything like this. Can anyone provide clarity on what she might be trying to accomplish?


I don't know much about schutzhund, but I do think I've seen videos where people will issue nagging corrections to the dog while doing a bark and hold. I believe they use this to agitate the dog in order to.... well, I'm not sure. But perhaps this is a similar theory?
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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LOVE the ball work!!! I swear around the 1 min mark she's using her tail to keep her balance and up on the ball.

I THINK what you are seeing with the leash (at 1:35 and 3 min ) isn't nagging. I don't think it's even being used to have the dog 'heel'.

What I THINK is going on is she's having the leash popping feeling LINK to the positive and the treats. The dog is targeting and heeling on the treat in her hand, the handler has her hand on the leash/collar and popping it but I don't see that in any way linked with the actual heeling behavior the dog is doing. Almost like the pup is learning it's job (heeling with head up) and being able to do it while working thru and caring less about the leash/collar situation.

I believe this is a HUGE help later when you don't (can't?) use nearly as many treats in training and you are having to rely more on the leash/collar. Because of such an early link with the 'corrections' to a GOOD thing and a POSITIVE thing the dog will be able to think and work thru the problem (the real correction) and keep driving and learning without the instant food feed back.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee View Post
LOVE the ball work!!! I swear around the 1 min mark she's using her tail to keep her balance and up on the ball.

I THINK what you are seeing with the leash (at 1:35 and 3 min ) isn't nagging. I don't think it's even being used to have the dog 'heel'.

What I THINK is going on is she's having the leash popping feeling LINK to the positive and the treats. The dog is targeting and heeling on the treat in her hand, the handler has her hand on the leash/collar and popping it but I don't see that in any way linked with the actual heeling behavior the dog is doing. Almost like the pup is learning it's job (heeling with head up) and being able to do it while working thru and caring less about the leash/collar situation.

I believe this is a HUGE help later when you don't (can't?) use nearly as many treats in training and you are having to rely more on the leash/collar. Because of such an early link with the 'corrections' to a GOOD thing and a POSITIVE thing the dog will be able to think and work thru the problem (the real correction) and keep driving and learning without the instant food feed back.
This.

I didn't view this as constant nagging corrections at all. I think she is eventually going to use the leash taps as a positive influence for keeping the dogs head up and straight, like a motivational tool. I think if she were giving a constant nagging correction, it would be in the opposite direction. I think that a correction is used to try and fix an unwanted behavior, whereas these motivational taps are used to keep the dog going.

I can't really put into words what I'm trying to say, lol. Basically, I just think she's using it as a motivational tap forward rather than a correction.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I think that's a really interesting theory. If she wants the dogs head up, she wouldn't correct down. The fact she's popping upwards to me is correcting the dog. She's nagging the dog to keep his head up. I don't see the point at all.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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leash and collar with same play as a sensitive hand and horse with bit -- line of communication
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #6 (permalink)
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well it is not a correction -- she is using little light stimulation from the collar and the dog is experiencing positive input , same as if she had taken her fingers and given a quick tickle --
when I do my dogs I use chain collar that is almost jewellery necklace fine and the leash could be lightest nylon -- it is not for restraint it is another communication tool.

One training session that I held , last time I had a group was - dogs off leash -- that forces the handler to create a bond and interest . I did have light bamboo sticks , so on a turn as the dog was going into a right turn (and had to travel more than the handler) a light touch , no more than taking your index finger of right hand and touching left , was given and the dog would spring up with energy . They enjoyed this . got great results , better understanding of the handlers to their dogs .

I think this woman on the video is amazing. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:22 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildo View Post
I think that's a really interesting theory. If she wants the dogs head up, she wouldn't correct down. The fact she's popping upwards to me is correcting the dog. She's nagging the dog to keep his head up. I don't see the point at all.
But she's not. Popping or correcting.

To me, the 'heeling and head up' is being done 100% with her hand position and past training with the pup.

To me, what you are seeing with the leash/collar is an entirely different part of the training. NOT being used to have the pup heel or keep it's head up.

I think the handler is trying to get the pup used to the feel of the leash/collar and connect any tension/movement (popping) as a POSITIVE and fun thing. So having the leash on, collar on, handler using her hand on it, is just more of the crazy wonderful happy world of training with my handler.

So later, when training is more difficult (serious) and the handler is no longer able to talk all the time, and use so many tons of constant treats and ONLY has the collar/leash to rely on, the dog will not avoid or shut down or SLOW down because training isn't fun any more.

I know I had a trainer a few years ago who wanted us to do this with the prong collar. She literally had us sit our dogs in front of us with a prong collar on and leash connected. Then hold the leash straight up and give gentle upward pops with the leash and CLICKING/treating each time. The ONLY thing we were training (though we were getting great attention and head up from the dog) was the connection being 100% positive with a leash pop. We just stood in front of our dogs and popped (really gentle, in no way a correction but it would close the prongs a bit) click/treat, pop/click/treat, pop/click/treat.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
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But it's not a correction. It's just little taps on the prong or jingling the collar as motivation and to reinforce her correct head position. I guess you could call it nagging if you'd like. It's sort of like a constant reminder to keep the head up. There is no negative association (which you can tell clearly just by seeing that dog) which is what would make it a correction.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Have you watched her other videos? She explains a bit more in her earlier videos with her Golden, Saucy.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
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No I haven't watched her other videos. I'll have to do that...
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