LouCastle vs Leerburg Method for Remote Collars?

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

My only interaction with Lou was several patient hours with me on the phone, giving me advice, and not trying to sell me anything. So while he can be a polarizing character on forums (sorry, Lou), he seems like a helpful person in real life.

I'll second this. I've talked for hours on the phone with Lou.

Just the other day, my uncle was shocked I downed my female when she tore after a feral cat in his yard. This is a result of ecollar training. The same female was also highly dog aggressive a year ago. We can now walk by a crated dog going berserk and only have a bit of tension on her part but complete self control on her part. Also a result of ecollar training (Lou's crittering article).

Any my male, the ecollar is the only correction tool I can use during protection without sending him higher in fight drive. On a dogtra, in OB I am around 8-10 with both dogs, with my male during protection we are around 24-30 depending on the day. My female is usually worked only on a fur-saver during protection. The only time 127 (highest level) was ever used, was on my roommate, because he is a masochist lol.

[_Crystal_]

I just read Lou's whole website, and I have read Leerburgs before, and I do prefer Lou's by a mile. I find Leerburg's methods abusive, and just plain confusing for the animal. And seriously, a SHOVEL for FENCE FIGHTING? I've never heard of this, but that sounds just terrible. Why would you ever consider doing that to your poor dog? Whoever does this must be a really bad person, to even consider bashing your dog with a shovel, whether it be once or several times. That sickens me. Just. No. *shudder*

[Syaoransbear]

Leerburg. I want the dog to know he's in control of the stim coming on as well as it being turned off.

[_Crystal_]

Originally Posted by Syaoransbear

I want the dog to know he's in control of the stim coming on as well as it being turned off.

But you can do that with Lou's method as well. At least that is the message I perceived when I read Lou's website and tutorials.

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by _Crystal_

But you can do that with Lou's method as well. At least that is the message I perceived when I read Lou's website and tutorials.

You're right Crystal. My method teaches this from the start. It happens with low level stim which allows the dog to continue to think. Mr. F's methods use much higher levels of stim and since the dog is in pain, his ability to think, and to realize what is happening, is greatly reduced. You can get much faster results like this, but the dog is reacting out of fear of the pain that's being inflicted. Mr. F thinks that the dogs he trains with his method are learning that they are in charge of when the stim starts and stops, but he's sadly mistaken about this.

[BritneyP]

Originally Posted by LouCastle

My methods don't require that the dog "understands what is expected of him." My methods can be used on a dog that has never had a day of training in his life as well as one that knows the behaviors very well. My method teaches the dog what the stim means and how to shut it off

Could you possibly briefly elaborate as to exactly HOW, out of the myriad of behaviors a dog could potentially perform, are they doing to finally stumble upon the "right" one that shuts the stim off?


I will admit that I am not a fan of negative reinforcement for teaching much of anything. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that I should choose to teach my dog how to sit by stimulating them with electricity for an undetermined amount of time until they finally decide to sit, instead of luring/motivating with food, proofing with distraction, introducing collar/leash corrections for non-compliance, then eventually pairing the e-collar with leash corrections.

I guess I subscribe to the "old school" methodology of ensuring my dog knows exactly what is being asked of them before I start correcting them for choosing not to do it.

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by BritneyP

Could you possibly briefly elaborate as to exactly HOW, out of the myriad of behaviors a dog could potentially perform, are they doing to finally stumble upon the "right" one that shuts the stim off?

Sure can Britney, thanks for asking. In my protocols (HERE'S ONE, for example) the dog is guided with a leash (during the recall I use a retractable one) into the desired behavior. They don't have the opportunity to guess wrong. In the recall, I stim the dog at the level that he can first perceive, pull him towards me, and after he's taken a few steps towards me, stop the stim. They don't "stumble upon the 'right' " behavior, they have no chance to make the wrong choice.

Originally Posted by BritneyP

I will admit that I am not a fan of negative reinforcement for teaching much of anything. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that I should choose to teach my dog how to sit by stimulating them with electricity for an undetermined amount of time until they finally decide to sit

What you describe, "stimulating them with electricity for an undetermined amount of time until they finally decide to sit" is NOT how it's done. In the sit the dog is guided into the sit with hand and leash pressure while being stimmed. It's shut off when his butt hits the ground. The stim, again, at the level that the dog can first perceive, lasts for about a second. I'm not sure why people make such statements when the protocols are available for them read to with, but a click. The SIT PROTOCOL IS HERE.

Originally Posted by BritneyP

I guess I subscribe to the "old school" methodology of ensuring my dog knows exactly what is being asked of them before I start correcting them for choosing not to do it.

If you'll consider that there's another way to use an Ecollar than as a "correction" perhaps this will become clear. Instead think of it as "pressure." The pressure is applied, the dog is guided into the behavior, and then the pressure is removed.

[BritneyP]

Originally Posted by LouCastle

The stim, again, at the level that the dog can first perceive, lasts for about a second.

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate, Lou!


In regards to the above statement, doesn't the process of determining "the level the dog can first perceive" involve applying the unpleasant stimulation (that the dog will eventually be trying to avoid) when the dog is not acting inappropriately at all? Thus, potential making an association that new learning = unpleasant stimulation?


I realize there is a certain amount of guiding into a position, but to me, that is still not actually teaching the dog the behavior you are looking for. Asking a dog to sit is a pretty specific behavior. I have seen negative reinforcement trainers refer to the plethora of different behaviors a dog will go through before they figure out which one shuts the stim off as, "exploring behaviors".. is this not something you do?

I do prefer to use leash, correction collar and e-collar as forms of positive punishment, but I also believe I have set my dogs up for success before introducing them because I know they have a very clear understanding of what is being asked of them because it has been taught through motivation and repitition.

If a dog that has been taught behaviors through R- chooses not to comply at some point down the road, how do you go about punishing or "correcting" for non-compliance? Are rewards ever incorporated into R- or is the reward itself simply the act of removing the unpleasant stimulation?

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by BritneyP

In regards to the above statement, doesn't the process of determining "the level the dog can first perceive" involve applying the unpleasant stimulation (that the dog will eventually be trying to avoid) when the dog is not acting inappropriately at all? Thus, potential making an association that new learning = unpleasant stimulation?

It's done by putting the Ecollar on the dog with it set at "0." Then it's turned up one number at a time until the dog shows some sign that he feels it. Commonly that's an ear flick or a look at the ground, as if the dog had been bitten by a bug. While it is an unpleasant feeling, it's so minor that it doesn't cause any significant reaction. HERE'S SOME VIDEO of a dog that is feeling his first stim. You can see that how little stress or discomfort there is in this. That process of finding the dog's working level (where he first feels the stim) is DESCRIBED IN DETAIL HERE

Originally Posted by BritneyP

I realize there is a certain amount of guiding into a position, but to me, that is still not actually teaching the dog the behavior you are looking for.

The method makes use of two extremely powerful tools in dog training; self motivation and self discovery. The dog is motivated to find a way to make the discomfort stop, and he's shown how he can do it. Through a series of repetitions he discovers for himself how to make it stop.

Originally Posted by BritneyP

Asking a dog to sit is a pretty specific behavior. I have seen negative reinforcement trainers refer to the plethora of different behaviors a dog will go through before they figure out which one shuts the stim off as, "exploring behaviors".. is this not something you do?

No it's not. It makes no sense to me to wait for a dog to guess what I want from him. Instead I guide him into the proper behavior. Again self motivation and self discovery are at work. The dog is motivated to make the discomfort stop and they are shown that completing the movement is what does that.

Originally Posted by BritneyP

I do prefer to use leash, correction collar and e-collar as forms of positive punishment, but I also believe I have set my dogs up for success before introducing them because I know they have a very clear understanding of what is being asked of them because it has been taught through motivation and repitition.

Nothing at all wrong with that. In fact, that's the most common way that Ecollars are used in the US. I just prefer another way. I think it's less stressful on the dog and gives better, meaning longer lasting, and more reliable results. I don't require that anyone change or that they accept my methods. I just ask that they realize that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Many people who used to use your way of doing it have tried my methods and some prefer them. I have no doubt that some have tried it and gone back to the way they used to do it too. As long as they're happy and they get bombproof results.

Originally Posted by BritneyP

If a dog that has been taught behaviors through R- chooses not to comply at some point down the road, how do you go about punishing or "correcting" for non-compliance?

Stim at the level that the dog can first perceive, is used for the teaching phase of training. That can be continued, at the same level, through the process of weaning the dog off the collar. At some point, it will become clear that the dog knows what the command means, and that he knows how to shut the stim off. Once that happens, the dog can be corrected at slightly higher levels for noncompliance. The dog will tell you what level he needs, just as he does with leash corrections.

Originally Posted by BritneyP

Are rewards ever incorporated into R- or is the reward itself simply the act of removing the unpleasant stimulation?

That depends on the dog and what I'm training. For pet work, I incorporate rewards in various forms as the dogs need them. I rarely train OB just for the sake of OB. I train mostly police and SAR dogs these days and set up training so that they can satisfy their drives as part of the training. Everything is done with an eye towards how it affects the search work. There's nothing wrong with using rewards, whatever the dog prefers, toys, treats, praise, bumping, etc., but I try to let the reward be "fulfilling the drive."

[Olivers mama]

Originally Posted by LouCastle

...set up training so that they can satisfy their drives as part of the training. Everything is done with an eye towards how it affects the search work. There's nothing wrong with using rewards, whatever the dog prefers, toys, treats, praise, bumping, etc., but I try to let the reward be "fulfilling the drive."

This is EXACTLY what I want & PRECISELY what Ziva needs, IMO. Thus, the indecision on which collar to buy. After 1 1/2 years of "professional" trainers, treats & praise up the ying-yang, we now have a 3-yr-old Rescue that has decided - in the last 8-10 months - not to do ANYthing she's told With treats or a raised voice, the job gets done. Without 1 of those 2...well, she'd flip me off if she was ambi-paw-drous. And now the snapping - at me, not hubby. Won't tolerate a dog biting me, but don't know how to stop it without tossing her into next week. Angry? You bet.

But a police K9 handler-friend has worked with her twice (so far) & agreed she needs training that goes beyond the 'Nice Guy' pat on the head. That she is clearly blowing us off. (If they postpone my chemo again this weekend, he's coming back this weekend to work her more. He mentioned Lou's methods & the ecollar.) He said she is clearly blowing us off. She's "only" a pet, but I want more from her training.

You guys have given me some direction, for which I am TREMENDOUSLY thankful!