A thought on training approaches!

[RocketDog]

Also, the Volhard personality test begins with a section on Choosing a Breed and specifically mentions Labradors--and I quote "Naturally protective". Hmmm. I'm betting you've never owned one also, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by heartdog

I totally grimace with Koehler- and I am very familiar with his writing. It's kind of ludicrous to me to say he doesn't use force until the dog knows what's being asked. Everything in the philosophy is force, in order to make the dog "responsible".
I'm for relationship based training. I'm not an extremist, but by and large I do try to avoid using force, because it's a slippery slope (for me at least) and it's better that I creatively think how to solve issues without using physical confrontation. It doesn't make sense to me to treat an aggressive dog with a lot of force, either. It might take a longer time through positive means, but in the long run I think it sticks better, and causes true change in behavior, not outward signs.
It's truly incredible the things that you can teach an animal through motivation. The only limitation is the trainer's skill and creativity

Everyone has the right to whatever opinion they want - the beauty of America.

To me, for example, it is absolutely ridiculous to not be able to "force" a dog to do what their owner tells them to do.

Or to wait until a dog is "motivated' to do something that the owner asks them to.

Or even worse to do as one of the PO INSTRUCTORS in my obedience club once told me when I asked her how to stop my dog from counter-surfing!

Know what they said - "Don't leave anything that he would be interested in on the counter!"

Nothing on how to solve the behavior problem - just take the temptation away.

I don't know about you (do you agree with this edition of a PO trainer "solving" a behavior problem?); but to me that is a totally unacceptable approach to a dog behavior problem.

I do notice however, like your posts, most PO advocates do use a certain group of words - "Force" or "Punishment" or "Cruel" and other emotionally charged words rather than more nuetral sounding words like "Correction" or "Reminder". Wonder why?

You can teach many things thru treats and rewards BUT can you depend on a dog that decides itself when and what it wants to do?

Have you noticed that Jean Samulson(sp?) admits that her method will NOT result in as speedy or reliable retrieve as one that is taught thru a form of compulsion? If you don't know that or don't believe it - then just read her book and you will see her admitting it.

Proabably why many of the local PO obedience competitors also go bonkers if you look at or heaven forbid, talk to or worse, even try to pet their dog prior to them going into the ring. Lack of reliability due to the dog being allowed to make up his/her mind whether to obey or not!

A combination of treat/reward based training with some serious "proofing" and yes even a bit of compulsion when needed with some dogs!

[Smithie86]

I think it is also knowing how to read a dog, know what training when.

Saw a 1.5 year old the other week. Owner talked about how the dog was 'highly bred", but yet had contact husband to fix major aggression/nerve issues from previous trainings. Major defense had been put on the dog at a very young age, etc. Stress handling crating (poop all over), etc another result. Bitten multiple people. Owner did not really see the issue....Not a good situation.