Is NILIF a nasty dog training tool?

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by Germanshepherdlova

I am going to repost a copy and paste about when NILIF gets out of control from the link that I posted in my OP that will explain how NILIF can be abused>

"It’s a lot of work. More work than most people have the time or inclination for, because if you are going to limit your dog from the joys of life without your exclusive involvement you better **** well make sure that you’re spending a lot of time with your dog, getting him out and making sure his physical and mental needs are being met on a daily basis. It’s very easy for a dog to become neglected in this type of situation if the handler is lazy, not careful, or becomes desensitized to a dog living in a box. In its worst form dogs are put away like sports equipment when not being “used”.
While there are some circumstances where NILIF can be employed skillfully and may be an occasional wise tool of choice (never say never), I also believe that it can be abused or become the hallmark of lazy training. Not lazy in the sense that it’s easy, I’ve already said that it’s a lot of work to properly care for and train a dog under these conditions time wise, but lazy in a sense of creativity and relationship with a dog. It’s relatively easy to get a dog to do your biding or find you the most interesting thing in the world when he’s got absolutely nothing else going on in his life, no free will and no options."

I love the Dogstar Daily site, and I'm familiar with Kelly Dunbar, she's Ian Dunbar's wife. I think both of them are great, but what she's describing above is TO ME, not NILIF. I've never practiced it that way and I've never heard anyone else do that and claim that it's NILIF either.

This is NILIF:

Nothing in Life is Free

Now that your dog is no longer calling the shots you will have to make an extra effort to provide him with attention and play time. Call him to you, have him "sit" and then lavish him with as much attention as you want. Have him go get his favorite toy and play as long as you both have the energy. The difference is that now you will be the one initiating the attention and beginning the play time. He's going to depend on you now, a lot more than before, to see that he gets what he needs. What he needs most is quality time with you. This would be a good time to enroll in a group obedience class. If his basic obedience is top notch, see about joining an agility class or fly ball team.

NILIF DOES *NOT* MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO RESTRICT THE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION YOU GIVE TO YOUR DOG. The NILIF concept speaks to who initiates the attention (you!), not the amount of attention. Go ahead and call your dog to you 100 times a day for hugs and kisses!! You can demand his attention, he can no longer demand yours!

As you can see, NILIF specifically states that you do not put the dog away in a box and forget about it, you don't have to restrict attention at all, you just initiate it rather than letting your dog pester you for it. There is absolutely nothing remotely abusive about NILIF if what you're doing actually IS NILIF.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I agree, there IS a hierarchy, both among dogs and people and the dogs. My issue is that I don't think it should take physical confrontation with your own dog in order to establish this. The purpose of NILIF *is* to address this hierarchy and establish that the humans are in control and in their household the dog is expected to behave a certain way. It should be something that is setup pretty quickly with the dog when it arrives as a puppy. To me the concept of "alpha training" just represents some sort of fix to bandaid the training and management that was not properly done in the first place. Just because a dog bites its owner does not necessarily make it any more hard or dominant than any other dog, and just because a dog truly is a dominant, hard dog does not at all mean it's going to snap on it's owner or refuse simple commands. If the dog had had NILIF when it was younger it never would have escalated to alpha rolling.

^^^^^^^

[JanaeUlva]

in my experience, dogs described as stubborn were actually confused - meaning there were unrealistic expectations by a human who thinks the dog understands the rules/desired behavior when they really don't. And yes, some dogs are easier to train, some training methods work better for some dogs and/or some trainers, and then again, some trainers are better communicators. Lots of factors that play into "stubborn".

[Jack's Dad]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I agree, there IS a hierarchy, both among dogs and people and the dogs. My issue is that I don't think it should take physical confrontation with your own dog in order to establish this. The purpose of NILIF *is* to address this hierarchy and establish that the humans are in control and in their household the dog is expected to behave a certain way. It should be something that is setup pretty quickly with the dog when it arrives as a puppy. To me the concept of "alpha training" just represents some sort of fix to bandaid the training and management that was not properly done in the first place. Just because a dog bites its owner does not necessarily make it any more hard or dominant than any other dog, and just because a dog truly is a dominant, hard dog does not at all mean it's going to snap on it's owner or refuse simple commands. If the dog had had NILIF when it was younger it never would have escalated to alpha rolling.

I agree and it doesn't have to be NILIF, there are lots ofgood trainining methods. The problem is many people don't train or find a training that works and you wind up with these out of control dogs.

As you said, look at the owners on the dog Whisperer show and there is the problem.

My personal opinion is that some kids and dogs are way to spoiled these days and that is a lot of the problem.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by JanaeUlva

in my experience, dogs described as stubborn were actually confused - meaning there were unrealistic expectations by a human who thinks the dog understands the rules/desired behavior when they really don't.

That has been my experience as well. I've trained a few of my relatives' dogs to do things that they insist their dogs "refuse" to do in a few 5 minute sessions. You have to adjust the methods and tools for the individual dog but the communication has to be there in the first place for anything to stick.

[AgileGSD]

I don't doubt the "alpha dog training" worked, although it probably didn't work for the reason you feel it did (showed your dog who was alpha). Just like NILF doesn't work by showing your dog who is alpha. It worked through teaching consistent behaviors, that were reinforced on a daily basis. Dogs do what worked, you changed what worked and your dogs behavior changed.

The whole alpha thing is a very outdated way of thinking about dog behavior, based on a very outdated way of thinking about wolf behavior.

Originally Posted by Germanshepherdlova

Do peoples dogs really jump on counters? That would be very, very out of control behavior..

One of mine jumps all four feet onto the kitchen table sometimes...and I think it's very funny. He doesn't do it to steal food, usually he does it offering the "jump onto something" behavior for a reward. Or he does it because...well why not? It's fun to be up so high! He has walked on the coffee table too, just like it was the floor. Cracks me up. It doesn't mean one thing or another in terms of "dominance" or whatever. Just that he has never been discouraged from getting up onto things and is a very confident, curious dog. He's quite well trained and very responsive

Originally Posted by Germanshepherdlova

I am reposting this question because it has yet to be answered and I really want to know what one would do in this situation. Somebody who has dealt with a dog who is very stubborn and dominant-tell me how you handled this if you attempted it with NILIF. Or PM me if you prefer not to discuss it on this thread.

Well I don't tend to use terms like "dominant" and "stubborn". Often, the reason for dogs being labeled as such is not accurate and such labels tend to encourage negative feelings towards the dog.

That said, if I had a dog who I wanted to sit for his food and he wouldn't I would first consider if he understands sit in all contexts. If he does not, I would help him to sit by luring then give him his food. If I was 100% sure the dog knew to sit and wasn't, I'd consider if there was a physical reason. If not, I'd put the food away and try again in a few minutes. Chances are pretty good that of the dog wants his dinner, knows how to and is able to perform a simple cue to get it, he will.

Originally Posted by Liesje

I won't say this "alpha" thing didn't work but I don't get how it came to that.... I can see pulling an adult dog from a shelter that has never had any training, boundaries, has always had to fight for it's meals and you're going to have some pretty deep baggage to deal with..... but my main problem with the type of training described is not the training itself but that the dog somehow got THAT bad in the first place. With a puppy we have every opportunity to imprint whatever structure we want. I guess I can't fathom letting my dog get away with ruling the roost and then pushing him around until he's taken down several notches. To me this is not "training" but going back and fixing big mistakes that were made by not addressing aspects of the dog's behavior as he was developing.

I totally agree with this. I personally couldn't imagine having a dog from such a young puppy and allowing things to get to the point where the dog is attacking me. But people do it all the time. One of my puppies went to a home where he apparently started resource guarding at 10 or so weeks old. They never mentioned it until he was about 7 or 8 months old and it was a big problem. If it had been addressed when it first occurred, it would have been a much simpler fix than addressing it in a mostly grown dog with big teeth and a strong reason to believe that he can and should fight off others for his stuff. The problem had grown from a fairly common puppy issue into a great, big dangerous situation because the owners had allowed it to. Not because the dog was "dominant" or "stubborn" or because he "needed to be shown who was alpha" but because his owners had raised him to believe such behavior was acceptable.

[Samba]

I know we have an interesting re- education situation when people come to class with described "alpha" and "dominant" dogs. One recently diagnosed thusly and regularly "cesared" by the owner was actually a submissive, low confidence dog.

There are sometimes dogs who present aggression problems. Recently a large flock guardian breed with a 90 lb owner. Physicality not an option and the lady was not a strong personality. This situation requires other approaches.

I have seen people who have very poor skills at leadership better the relationship with some training and consistency. It is much easier to apply such techniques than try to have someone become something they have no desire to do. I do believe in transformational work in people's lives, but that is not always their agenda, and easily applied techniques of training and management can get things a long way to the good.

[sheep]

I guess that I kind of practice NILIF by having my puppy waiting for his food, toys and going out of doors. I do it coz it can help him being more used to focus on me and listen, and it also helps to build some manners (waiting calmly for the treats and not jumping on me and stealing them!). But I don't always do it, sometimes I also give treats to him freely. I find sharing food with him (a piece of bread I'm eating) a way to bond with him (and rewarding whenever he is calm and respecting the boundaries).