Bringing compulsion back...

[Samba]

Had some interesting discussion today with a trainer who now practically specializes in rehabing food trained dogs. Many people in this country jumped on the foodie bandwagon when there was reaction to too much poorly done training. So, there are some people who find themselves in a bit of a bind when the dog comes to believe that it is simply performing for the delivery of a food bit!

Balanced training still has a bad name in many places. I think this is really unfortunate.

Now, this does not mean I believe that a " no food or toy" approach is one that is balanced either. I think the use of these rewards are of great benefit to training! But, somehow there is a way to use these along with motivating complusion that seems to bring about the most beautiful as well as reliable performances.

I am at a Sylvia Bishop Seminar and speaking with some participants. At first, I could not completely discern Sylvia 's approach. I do not understand all of its nuances, but can see its brilliance! Compulsion and correction are not bad words! They can be done in a manner that makes things clear and brings great drive from the dogs. When used in such a system, food and toys enhance but are not the foundation of the work. The British lady is bloody brilliant!

[Zahnburg]

That is not brilliance. Simply common sense.

[Liesje]

To me the best part of your post is "makes things clear". Some dogs learn very quickly, take training very seriously, and are naturally very easy to freeshape. Others may have all the drive in the world but are just screaming (sometimes literally) for you to show them what you want/don't want already!!!

[Jax08]

I was just talking to my trainer on Friday regarding when to introduce correction. She said that when the dog clearly understands what is expected of them and just decides to blow you off. Sounds fair and logical to me.

[DunRingill]

I've been to Sylvia seminars several times, she's great! Have fun!! Do you have a working spot or are you auditing??

[Zahnburg]

Originally Posted by Jax08

I was just talking to my trainer on Friday regarding when to introduce correction. She said that when the dog clearly understands what is expected of them and just decides to blow you off. Sounds fair and logical to me.

To me this is not entirely accurate. For me it is just as important to tell a dog when he is wrong as it is to tell him when he is right.

[Samba]

Well, yes it is common sense. Sylvia uses lots of compulsion and no correction collars. It is pretty interesting.

We are auditing. There are times I wish I had a working slot. But, she has still helped us as have some of the "regular" attenders of her seminars.

Sylvia would not wait so late to introduce compulsion. The little pups begin the method with early introduction. I would say it is not what I have traditionally seen as corrections. It sounds strange but it actually a rather gentle and fun system. Early conditioning to compulsion and physical handling. It is not like pulling the collar punch because the dog is wrong at all!

[Jax08]

Art - I am telling my dog when she's wrong but I"m not doing it with compulsion at this point. Telling her No and restarting her to teach her what I want is still telling her she is doing something wrong. When I was discussing with her when to introduce corrections, she didn't feel I was going to need to use a prong with her. An e-collar is way over the top for her and just shuts her down. She thinks that just a flat buckle collar is sufficient for my dog.

[Liesje]

To me compulsion is not just telling a dog when they are wrong. I've used -R to shape behaviors, especially behaviors that I use across disciplines and at home, behaviors that can be vital for safety in certain situations (the platz, for example). I do always pair -R with some form of reward and/or release, usually the dog sees it more as a release. For example if I've done a session involving a good bit of compulsion whether it be +P or -R, I tend to whip out a tug so the dog can unload, even though my usual reward is a ball at certain intervals or after the send-out. It means more to the dog to explode into the tug, "fight" me and win, and sit there holding the tug than happy-happy-joy-joy toy play or toy luring type training.

[DunRingill]

Originally Posted by Samba

We are auditing. There are times I wish I had a working slot. But, she has still helped us as have some of the "regular" attenders of her seminars.

Sylvia would not wait so late to introduce compulsion. The little pups begin the method with early introduction. I would say it is not what I have traditionally seen as corrections. It sounds strange but it actually a rather gentle and fun system. Early conditioning to compulsion and physical handling. It is not like pulling the collar punch because the dog is wrong at all!

I've done both, working spot and audit....it doesn't really matter which, I can always get something out of her seminars!

This kind of compulsion can be started very early on....it's just information, given in a way that the dog should see as part of the game. Ideally you should have MORE dog after the correction, not less. It's a different way to train, one that I'm still trying to master.