Hard dog *requires* firm hand: +R training?

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Lilie I agree but I also think nagging corrections, constantly repeating commands, etc can make the dog hardened because he gets away with having his own agenda and then in order to make the point the handler really has to step it up. A correction that may have worked in the beginning before the training was unclear now the dog totally ignores. That is really frustrating for me to watch, constant nagging and repeating commands and the dog barely flicking an eye in response.

Right! My point exactly! (Just stated much better!) The handler has made the dog hard by not following through with the first command. The dog becomes 'hard'. Therefore they have to utilize harsher/harder corrections to attempt to get the dog to comply.

[Emoore]

Can you please tell me where I could read up on +R training? I've never heard the term. I tried google but only found training on some type of software called R.

[Catu]

+R refers to Positive reinforcement
-P negative punishment

and so on...

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Emoore

Can you please tell me where I could read up on +R training? I've never heard the term. I tried google but only found training on some type of software called R.

+R is stuff like most marker based training, freeshaping, lure/mark/reward kind of stuff. You mark and reward what you want, ignore what you don't want (or command an incompatible behavior) rather than physically or verbally correct the dog. Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot The Dog!" is kind of the Bible of marker based +R dog training.

[wildo]

Originally Posted by Emoore

Can you please tell me where I could read up on +R training? I've never heard the term. I tried google but only found training on some type of software called R.

+R is simply an acronym for positive reinforcement training. Quite honestly, I am not sure where I saw it from. It's likely a spill over from psychology defining the four quadrants of operant conditioning as +R, -R, +P, and -P. To my knowledge (or at least the way I use it) the "+R" term used in the context of dog training is referring to the overall methodology of positive reinforcement training which embraces two quadrants of operant conditioning: the positive reinforcement and negative punishment quadrants. (Though I've recently debated with myself if restrained recalls could be classified as negative reinforcement.)

[Liesje]

I do not think restrained recalls are -R. To me a -R recall would be like if you put on an e-collar, gave the command, and stimm'd the dog until it started coming toward you. But it is interesting because often we build and cap drive by frustrating the dog somehow and this doesn't neatly fit into the quadrants. I don't think the quadrants can fully address the importance of drive in training, only the method/steps used to train the behaviors.

[wildo]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I do not think restrained recalls are -R. To me a -R recall would be like if you put on an e-collar, gave the command, and stimm'd the dog until it started coming toward you.

The removal of the restraint allows the dog to get reward. Couldn't you call the restraint a negative stimulus and coming to me the reward? I actually don't know the answer to this. I think it kinda fits the definition.

[Liesje]

I guess looking at it that way it fits. But I don't necessarily see restraining a dog as applying a negative stimulus especially because the dog's behavior doesn't turn that on or off. If the behavior being trained is a recall, the dog cannot accomplish that while being restrained. I suppose if the behavior really being trained was alerting to the handler, then you could say the dog is turning off the aversive restraint as long as he gets released the second he focuses on the handler (but when I do restrained recalls my dog is never not focused on me and is usually screaming as I walk away). In -R/escape training the dog learns that by doing or not doing certain things he can turn rewards on and turn aversives off.

Good topic though!

[Catu]

I would call a restrained recall -R if I apply pressure with the line and it releases when the dog comes. If the line is there only to prevent escaping until the dog decides by itself to come, then not.

[wildo]

Yep- I agree with your assessment. That's why I said I've debated with myself on it. I think you can make it fit into -R, but only by applying definitions that may or may not be accurate. I really don't know. The real world is hard to apply in black & white terms, but if you had to put restrained recall into one of the four operant conditioning quadrants, I think that -R might be the best fit. I dunno... Not that important. Just sayin'