Cesar Millan

[GSKnight]

Originally Posted by studio1one

I wouldn't have walked a known aggressive dog directly past another dog like that to make the situation arise in the first place. It is obviously way too much, too soon to put on a great show for the cameras. There is no reason on earth that dog needed to go through that kind of asphyxiation. It was placed in an environment and situation it should not have been placed in, but hey -- it makes good TV.

***

As for Leerburg, I have similar opinions as I do on Cesar Millan.

I got the impression from the audio discussion that they were both her dogs, as he was asking questions to her, but I could be wrong.

Isn't that the great thing about opinions... we all have them... and they all...

[longhairshepmom]

Originally Posted by studio1one

I have spent time at the wolf centre here in the UK

The Wolf Centre: Shaun Ellis at The Wolf Centre: The official website for Shaun Ellis - learning the truth about wolf and dog behaviour | Site

where genuinely wild animals are trained to be safe and sociable animals without any hanging or kicking at all. Shaun spent time out in the wild and actually integrated himself into a wolfpack, living wild with them for some time. I have seen them help the most aggressive and troubled dogs and never have they 'alpha rolled' them, hung them, kicked them or any other such training methods that seem to be popular with some people.

So you have spent time at a Wolf centre ? So have I. If those wolfs were still acting as nature intented for them to act, you would have seen FAR harsher corrections between the animals then Cesar would ever dish out. There is no "fluff" and rainbows and sunshine. In a actual pack you will never even have a "dog" with behaviour problems as the ones Cesar deals with. The wolfs are raised in their own pack with strict rules, and the ones that "act out" are dealt with quickly and harshly. And its not through "10 sessions of positive re-direction". The ones that don't submit to the rules, die.

Also...dogs aren't wolves. Dogs might have wolf traits but if you think you can live with a wolf, as you could with a dog, then good luck. No matter how much you redirect and train a wolf, its still a wolf. And that is good, as thats how they should be.

That dog in the video didn't get kicked. There is a difference between a shove with the side of a foot and a "kick in the groin". I'm sure this could be demonstrated

Also, the dog hung itself. Cesar went with his motions at all times, when the dog stayed down and away the pressure was off, when trying to rip Cesar, he kept the dog off by the collar. I've seen dogs choke themselves more then that just pulling their owners around on walks.

Again, the proof is in the pudding. I'm 100% sure that the owners and the dogs that were on their last chance are nothing but grateful.

If I filmed anyone interacting with their dogs for a day, you betcha I could find something in there to dissect and badmouth. However, having been involved in rescue I have seen actual abuse and there is a lot of that to go around. To compare that to what Cesar does is just simply ridiculous.

But yes, all this is just in my humble opinion.

[studio1one]

Yeah, I agree they both seemed to be her dogs. To me though that doesn't mean its still ok to engineer a situation where one dog can attack the other and then violently punish it. Redirection is great, although for me a heel to the abdomen is not great redirection.

I'm actually dealing with a pup of my own right now that has real aggression issues, although fear based ones and have got her to the stage where we can walk through a park full of dogs, kids playing etc with her happily off leash without any kind of concern over what she may do, she will even go and sniff a stranger happily if directed to. It's been a lot of work and a hard slog but we got there without any prongs, chokes, harsh corrections or other such techniques. Building trust and faith in the handler (me) through correct body language and slow organised staged development of strangers has been the key. I guess I've never had to deal with a dog that it is a case of fix it or the dog will be put to sleep but I hope I would not resort to using the kind of technique shown in that video.

As for opinions we have a saying here in England. Opinions are like your butt, everyone has one and everyone's is as equally full of sh*t.


For what its worth, I have been very negative about trainers on this thread and I should counter balance that. One trainer I have a huge amount of respect for is Turid Rugaas.

[studio1one]

Originally Posted by longhairshepmom

So you have spent time at a Wolf centre ? So have I. If those wolfs were still acting as nature intented for them to act, you would have seen FAR harsher corrections between the animals then Cesar would ever dish out. There is no "fluff" and rainbows and sunshine. In a actual pack you will never even have a "dog" with behaviour problems as the ones Cesar deals with. The wolfs are raised in their own pack with strict rules, and the ones that "act out" are dealt with quickly and harshly. And its not through "10 sessions of positive re-direction". The ones that don't submit to the rules, die.

For sure, I would hope that we are a little more civilised than wolves though.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by studio1one

I would rather set myself on fire than let him anywhere near any of my dogs.

Watch this video, it is typical of him. The dog is doing nothing until at 19 seconds Cesar kicks the dog in the abdomen, behind the rib cage where it has little protection.

The dog then goes for him, because he kicked it, so he strangles it until it nearly passes out.

The guy should be locked up.

I wonder how he would react if I was stood next to him then kicked him in the stomach for no reason?

Cesar Millan "The Dog Whisperer" strangles dog. Training? - YouTube

It would really be interesting to watch (film?) you handling some of the dogs that he has worked with. Might set a record for Blue cross in a single year.

Do you happen to have any film already of you dealing with a seriously aggressive (people or dog or both) very large dog?

[longhairshepmom]

Violent punishment ?
The scene in the video was far from any violent punishment. The tap to the side isn't even worth mentioning in the same sentence as "abuse". Anytime you play rough with your dog and pat their sides you touch them harder then that !!
And keeping the dog from ripping your throat out by holding him off is "violent punishment" ?? The dog knew full well the pressure was off as soon as he was down, each time. He did it to himself, and he did not get violently punished. He was not harmed. Dogs choke themselves harder pulling their owners around.
Violent punishment is what many people around here recommend to do to a dog when it attacks your dog. Like a stick or bat to the head. A bullet to the brain. A actual hard kicking, meaning to break bones.
If those 3 minutes of "harsh violent punishment" that the dog suffered saved him from either euthanisia, saved the other dog (and people) from being torn to pieces, saved the dog from a bullet, broken bones and bashed brains, then GOOD FOR THIS DOG.

I know everyone has their own opinions and its perfectly alright for them to differ. But having seen true abuse, real violence and having that being compared to what Cesar does really doesn't sit well with me.
I'm all for the ultimate GOOD for the animal, and I've seen way WAY to many animals suffer because of well intentioned humans that antrhomorphized animals right to death, ultimately.
And by the way, Cesar has also been very successful with extreme cases of fear and fear aggression in dogs. Again, proof is in the pudding. My first shepherd had weak nerves and it is the single hardest thing to deal with sucessfully. He ended up being one of the most treasured dogs ever, by us , my family and friends. He even accepted strangers eventually. Lots of hard work and LOTS of common sense later.
Pretty much using Cesars methods (before I even knew Cesar existed, he didn't invent the wheel after all).

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by studio1one

Yeah, I agree they both seemed to be her dogs. To me though that doesn't mean its still ok to engineer a situation where one dog can attack the other and then violently punish it. Redirection is great, although for me a heel to the abdomen is not great redirection.

I'm actually dealing with a pup of my own right now that has real aggression issues, although fear based ones and have got her to the stage where we can walk through a park full of dogs, kids playing etc with her happily off leash without any kind of concern over what she may do, she will even go and sniff a stranger happily if directed to. It's been a lot of work and a hard slog but we got there without any prongs, chokes, harsh corrections or other such techniques. Building trust and faith in the handler (me) through correct body language and slow organised staged development of strangers has been the key. I guess I've never had to deal with a dog that it is a case of fix it or the dog will be put to sleep but I hope I would not resort to using the kind of technique shown in that video. Cesar has!

As for opinions we have a saying here in England. Opinions are like your butt, everyone has one and everyone's is as equally full of sh*t. As you do!


For what its worth, I have been very negative about trainers on this thread and I should counter balance that. One trainer I have a huge amount of respect for is Turid Rugaas.

That does explain your posts! Thanks for explaining!

BTW, is she a trainer or a behaviorist?

[GSDkid]

Originally Posted by studio1one

I'm actually dealing with a pup of my own right now that has real aggression issues, although fear based ones and have got her to the stage where we can walk through a park full of dogs, kids playing etc with her happily off leash without any kind of concern over what she may do, she will even go and sniff a stranger happily if directed to. It's been a lot of work and a hard slog but we got there without any prongs, chokes, harsh corrections or other such techniques. Building trust and faith in the handler (me) through correct body language and slow organised staged development of strangers has been the key. I guess I've never had to deal with a dog that it is a case of fix it or the dog will be put to sleep but I hope I would not resort to using the kind of technique shown in that video.

It's great that you are training your dog properly BUT these are dogs with serious issues already. These dogs already have a habit of aggression that are full size. I'm pretty sure if a positive trainer could fix this issue, these people wouldn't be on the show. Pups are small and young, they learn quickly and are easier to handle so that doesn't even compare to that big husky.

Also, CM was not punishing the dog. The dog was ready to launch at the other and CM redirected the launch towards himself. If he had let that leash go, the dog would be all over him. That leash was used to control the dog as well as protecting himself.

[longhairshepmom]

Originally Posted by studio1one

For sure, I would hope that we are a little more civilised than wolves though.

Bingo !
Yes we are.
Because we are humans, and different from wolves.
Just as we are different from dogs. They learn and act differently then us. Its humans that tend to make things more complicated then they are.

[Twyla]

I've always sat in wonder with the CM videos. They refuse to show the history of the dog, what it's options are if training isn't successful, nor do they show the aftermath and the actual results. The ones who create these videos pick and choose the parts to use, to specifically play up what would be seen as abuse if taken by itself.

Those with dominant or fear aggressive dogs know you have several tricks lined up to break focus depending on the level of focus. A hard case like the one shown in the video appeared to be a very controlled action taken by CM.