Training for correctness vs training for attitude

[hunterisgreat]

Which do you do? Ask for the perfect sit/platz/etc right now and work on speed & attitude later, or ask for a super enthused movement now and work on perfecting the form later?

"Both" isn't an answer Fixing one sacrifices the other in the immediate time frame.

[Jax08]

Good question! Jax is the first dog I've trained so I'm really interested in the answers. It's kind of like, what came first...the chicken or the egg?

[rvadog]

I don't understand why both isn't an answer?

Take a 8 week old puppy and start doing foundation and imprinting. If you have something that motivates him then you should be very easily able to teach him being correct is the only way to gain the reward.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by rvadog

I don't understand why both isn't an answer?

Take a 8 week old puppy and start doing foundation and imprinting. If you have something that motivates him then you should be very easily able to teach him being correct is the only way to gain the reward.

If you super enthusiasticly ask for a platz, and get a sloppy one... if you treat right now, you have answered "attitude", if you correct the form in any way and hold out on that treat, you've hurt his attitude and answered "correctness". You can work on both... certainly you have a threshold for how sloppy a platz you will allow. ALso, you can get both in the end of course, but you've got to start somewhere.

Take three dogs.
I train one for a week only caring about attitude
I train one for a week only caring about correctness
I train one for a week working on both

Dog 1 will seem the most interested in the work, Dog 2 will be flawless but seem less happy about it, and dog three will be neither. Eventually they will all end up in the same place with the proper training and enough time.

There isn't a right/wrong answer.

[MaggieRoseLee]

ask for a super enthused movement now and work on perfecting the form later?

First the drive and enthusiasm then the behavior for me!!! I want them to love to learn and do first of all. Then when the 'boring' exactness comes into play in the training they will still want to be 'in the game' and willing to learn!

[rvadog]

When I take a dog who is motivated by a reward and ask him to "platz" and when he doesn't I say "fooey" and move. He doesn't get a reward but I don't see a loss in drive or attitude. Instead I see an increase. The dog wonders why he is not getting a reward and trys harder.

The flaw with all of this is that by the time I'm asking my dog to front or "platz in motion" he's not sloppy. I don't mind correcting it because I'm not teaching it anymore.

[Jax08]

Then by the definition set by hunterisgreat, you are NOT doing both. You are training for correctness, not attitude.

[rvadog]

I understand that.

My point is he is wrong.

When teaching you can do both.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by rvadog

When I take a dog who is motivated by a reward and ask him to "platz" and when he doesn't I say "fooey" and move. He doesn't get a reward but I don't see a loss in drive or attitude. Instead I see an increase. The dog wonders why he is not getting a reward and trys harder.

The flaw with all of this is that by the time I'm asking my dog to front or "platz in motion" he's not sloppy. I don't mind correcting it because I'm not teaching it anymore.

Thats a bit more complex. First, if he flat doesn't obey the command then its thats predating my entire question. I'm talking about the dog actually doing the platz... either perfectly, or not so much perfect. I'm focusing on a very specific piece of the training

The increase in drive or attitude is because you've now loaded the dog with "positive stress". This is a separate concept from what I'm talking about.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by rvadog

I understand that.

My point is he is wrong.

When teaching you can do both.

You can do both, but you are always leaning to one side of the spectrum. From what you said it sounds as though you prefer attitude and are correcting down the road for a sloppy movement? (in other words, you do not correct a sloppy movement while teaching the behavior, but while practicing it later)