Training for correctness vs training for attitude

[Catu]

Originally Posted by Samba

By adding energy myself, the performance usually amps. Motivation and confidence and what is genetically in the dog bring it on.

Excellent point!!

Too often we like to think that we need a better toy, more yummy food, less distractions, wathever, and forget how much OUR energy affects the performance of the dog.

[psdontario]

Originally Posted by hunterisgreat

Which do you do? Ask for the perfect sit/platz/etc right now and work on speed & attitude later, or ask for a super enthused movement now and work on perfecting the form later?

"Both" isn't an answer Fixing one sacrifices the other in the immediate time frame.

Originally Posted by hunterisgreat

Which do you do? Ask for the perfect sit/platz/etc right now and work on speed & attitude later, or ask for a super enthused movement now and work on perfecting the form later?

"Both" isn't an answer Fixing one sacrifices the other in the immediate time frame.

This is a great question, one of the best I have heard in a long time with regard to training, and the responses have come from both sides of the coin without conflict. Very nice. The most civilized responses I have seen on a list to date.

My 2¢ will simply be a breakdown of how I do it... right or wrong, that is up to each person to determine after trying it for themselves (each person will find comfort in approaching a challenge in a different way). I still change up what I do however habits are sometimes hard to modify, never mind break.

First, what is the end result? Pet? Competition? Working scenario?
All require one very crucial thing... trust, consistency and communication (sorry if this sounds too cliché) between dog and handler. In order to meet those requirements effectively, I do use BOTH at the same time...not within the same training session necessarily, but within close proximity to one another... and I will explain with a post of record length .

My specific goal is to prepare for service, primarily police k9. Sharp, animated responses are not my goal, although speed and accuracy of position can be very important in some exercises (especially those with firearms).
I start my puppies at 8 weeks of age using two formats of learning, one creating high amounts of drive for tug, ball etc. the other building calm and focus while still creating a more "operant" mind which will be tested later in solving "puzzles". Both utilize the positive reinforcement and negative punishment quadrants of operant conditioning for you psych types who like big words. Being a simple person, I would say that I reward (positive) the dog for what I want, ignore what I do not want and wait for the correct response.

I begin with an 8 week old recruit with simple house training, getting to know me, making me the key to everything the dog knows, needs, enjoys and learns. I utilize Pavlovian conditioning (clicker training) and condition the puppy to the clicker so they can begin to understand the cause and effect of offering behavior and I increase the criteria as we go to shape position and accuracy....but this is only done for very short periods of time. This is a puppy and should not be ground down to the point where they avoid you...

now for the "both" part.

On the other side, where we spend most of our time, is simple play, games of chase and capture. Retrieval, searching, socializing (accessing public areas, seeing people, shapes, sounds etc. but not running with other dogs at parks or where other stronger relationship can be built with other that may interfere) and experiencing "normal life" is good. Attacking pant legs, shirt sleeves is not an issue, we do not sweat the small stuff, in fact I like it, I try not to promote it too much with me, but I enjoy them disrespecting others at this age, without punishment for it. They are puppies, this behavior subsides with time.
We play ball, lots of tug... oodles of tug and begin to use this game as a means of reinforcing raw motivation to perform very simple behaviors randomly, sometimes melding the behaviors we have learned using clicker into a session of crazy tug work. This melding of "calmly-shaped" behavior (for lack of a better term) with raw, wide-eyed intensity is something that does not happen instantly but it has a dramatic impact on the performance of required behaviors and how "reachable" (if that is a word) the dog is when it becomes stimulated. This is where (in my mind) the magic happens. This is key in what I do, because so many of the real life scenarios that my dogs face will be intense, I would not want my dogs to be unreachable in a highly stimulating scenario (say if a dog is sent to detain someone and needs to be called off).

That is how I blend both calm, accurate responses with high states of motivation. I would slant it more toward calm and accurate if I was to do sport then build drive into the exercises after, however, there would still be an overlap of sorts. For pet (my pet), hmmmmm.... not sure what I want out of my next pet... guess I need a goal, LOL.

As a side note, I rarely, if ever, use force as a means of teaching the dogs to "do" anything. Force is something I apply combined with reward to better prepare the dog for the traditional training programs of most departments. I want the correction to be a marker to pop into a more intense mindset where focus will earn you a reward... not as a means of inhibiting the dog or demotivating them. All my work is done on a flat collar, much is off leash to start. Never needed a prong or electronics although I used these devices for many years, I found a way around these crutches... and, speaking of crutches, no, I do not need food, a clicker or toys on me for my dogs to work. I do use prong collars to create a heightened state of aggression for bitework but that is another story involving a discussion on opposition reflex.... another post.

If I have skidded this initial post a bit off topic I apologize. I may take the time with my next recruits to loosely outline what I do by capturing it on video and posting it. Maybe by doing so other list members might have some suggestions that I could incorporate into what I am currently doing. I currently have youtube videos of my past dogs. If anyone is interested feel free to PM me.

Cheers,

Mike

[psdontario]

Originally Posted by Samba

Yes, Ellis does think this.

I have tried rewarding speed but was never sure the dogs knew what it was.

By adding energy myself, the performance usually amps. Motivation and confidence and what is genetically in the dog bring it on.

Good point. I like to build using my energy, cut off that energy and let the dog build with anticipation, waiting for me to provide more energy and increase the waiting period. Great for sport, creates a very animated performance in obed as well as protection.

[CassandGunnar]

Originally Posted by psdontario

All my work is done on a flat collar, much is off leash to start. Never needed a prong or electronics although I used these devices for many years, I found a way around these crutches... and, speaking of crutches, no, I do not need food, a clicker or toys on me for my dogs to work.

This is the way I was "trained" to work with all of K9 partners.
I laughed when I was reading the part I quoted because the only thing any of my dogs "worked" for was a rolled up taped towel.
The reward for a find or an apprehension was a quick game of tug with the towel or maybe me throwing it a couple of times for them to fetch.

People are amazed that my dogs were williing to work for a towel and no choke or prong collar was needed. OK, they did get the occasional Dairy Queen vanilla cone!

Excellent post, thanks for the information.

[psdontario]

Originally Posted by psdontario

First, what is the end result? Pet? Competition? Working scenario?
All require one very crucial thing... trust, consistency and communication

Oops, I obviously forgot how to count. Trust, consistency and communication have all become one thing... in my confused mind. Perhaps I should have written "All require having a good working relationship that includes trust, consistency and communication". That makes more sense.

Please excuse me for my poor writing skills.

Cheers,

Mike

[CassandGunnar]

Originally Posted by psdontario

Oops, I obviously forgot how to count. Trust, consistency and communication have all become one thing... in my confused mind. Perhaps I should have written "All require having a good working relationship that includes trust, consistency and communication". That makes more sense.

Please excuse me for my poor writing skills.

Cheers,

Mike

LOL, I must have got what you meant because I never even noticed it.
Good one.

[Samba]

Here is a five month old puppy. Granted a different breed that matures faster than GSD. There is a lot of drive and animation as well as great correctness for a puppy.

YouTube - 5 month old sheltie AKC Utility; Baby Nars Update - Early Aug 2010

YouTube - 5 month old sheltie AKC Utility; Baby Nars Update - Early Aug 2010