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Old 03-12-2010, 08:34 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Are you serious? I mean do you really believe that any dog who doesn't do what you tell him to do is "confused"?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here!! Yes, confusion can lead to a dog not doing a command.. See it every day..
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:18 AM   #42 (permalink)
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If it is confusion, maybe the dog is confused about whether it's more beneficial for him to obey a "stay" command, or to chase the cat he's interested in. In that case I don't think a correction for chasing a cat would be "unfair" if he decided not to "stay" as he was told. If he was indeed confused about the importance of obedience, the correction will remind him what happens when he chooses disobedience, and in the future, it should increase the chances of him obeying.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:19 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I'm not against corrections, they have their place in training. I'm not a pure positive trainer by any means. But to teach THROUGH corrections... that is completely unfair for the dog.

It is like to take a child and ask him "2+2" no answer? SLAP!! and yell "4!!!" until the kid answers "4" couple of times. Then assume the kid knows how to add and punish him later for not being able to resolve a problem. Oh yeah... and the kid will love mathematics...

Cesar Millan's pack is not what I would use as a good example for your point. Whoever who knows a little of canine body language can notice that.
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Last edited by Catu; 03-12-2010 at 09:21 AM. Reason: ETA: don't get in the boat of anthropormorphization, it is only a didactic example.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:23 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Agree, Catu!
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:25 AM   #45 (permalink)
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If I had to drag out a clicker and treats for every door I wanted my dog to sit at all day before going through, or lay down for a minute, or go to his bed, it would be quite a process.


That statement can only come from someone who knows NOTHING about clicker training, so please, for those of you thinking about starting up with the clicker, DISREGARD that statement....... As important as it is to click/treat initially with ALL initial training.......................... The next stage of CLICKER training is random reinforcement. Then fading the treats almost entirely (or entirely).

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I'm looking for calm, submissive OB.
I have friends with top obedience dogs, and I know tons of Sch dogs I've seen perform amazing obedience routines. Never have these trainers said their goal is a 'calm/submissive' dog.
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Of course, many clicker dogs aren't as enthusiastic once the food is gone either.
The only times I've seen this is when the owners fail to learn what clicker training is, and did it WRONG. Meaning they only learned part of the theory (goodness knows, taking classes to learn it right, and CONTINUING to take classes to progress and learn would mean I'd have to commit to something and learn something new....).

That statement just isn't true. Period. For dogs that are clicker trained properly using all the theory and ideas behind this training METHOD. It is a method. Based on way more than the mere 'click/treat' and that's it. Books are written about it. Trainers take years to learn and teach it well. I've been using it for years and I am still learning.

I want a fast, thinking, learning dog that is enthusiastic. I get that throwing the clicker into MY training bag of tricks.

And I would much rather say I have a crazy drivey dog listening and obeying then a 'calm, submissive' one.

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I agree that positive training is not for everyone. It require an owner who wants not only comply of commands, but a relationship the dog. Bond. It requires not to want a slave but a partner. Bond. It requires to be willing to spend time and effort shaping and proofing a behavior instead of a quick fix. Bond.
Just read that and it's a great statement probably putting my training theory into a few great sentences. If my ONLY goal is an end behavior ( ie a 'sit') then it doesn't matter how I taught it, using a 2X4 over their head (just kidding ) or using a clicker. But if I have a BIGGER goal............................. a relationship and bonding goal WITH my dog. And I do. It's the more positive training for me! My dogs. My choice.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:26 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ucdcrush View Post
If it is confusion, maybe the dog is confused about whether it's more beneficial for him to obey a "stay" command, or to chase the cat he's interested in. In that case I don't think a correction for chasing a cat would be "unfair" if he decided not to "stay" as he was told. If he was indeed confused about the importance of obedience, the correction will remind him what happens when he chooses disobedience, and in the future, it should increase the chances of him obeying.
If you put a dog in a situation were the conflict is that big before the dog is ready, you will set him to fail and you will be forced to use a heavy correction. It is a common mistake and its easy to blame the dog, but the truth is that it's a trainer mistake.

If I gradually raise the level of distractions all I'll need will be a "ah-ah" warning from time to time to get a rock solid stay. Oh... but that would require time... I'm sorry.
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Last edited by Catu; 03-12-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:33 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I'm not against corrections, they have their place in training. I'm not a pure positive trainer by any means. But to teach THROUGH corrections... that is completely unfair for the dog.

It is like to take a child and ask him "2+2" no answer? SLAP!! and yell "4!!!" until the kid answers "4" couple of times. Then assume the kid knows how to add and punish him later for not being able to resolve a problem. Oh yeah... and the kid will love mathematics...
Anytime the word "correction" comes up, people jump to talking about "training through corrections" and how bad it is. This Perfect Dog system includes corrections but I would not call it "training through corrections".

I am not advocating training "through corrections", neither is the Perfect Dog system, and from what I read, no one else in here favors training "through corrections" either.

The example in your 2nd paragraph is ridiculous. Of course that would be wrong, but why are you even mentioning it here? It has little or nothing to do with any "dog training system" that is being discussed here. Again, anytime the word "correction" comes around, some people start railing against the most extreme "corrections only" system they can think of -- even if it does not relate to the training theory or system being discussed.
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:19 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
I would rather have my dog be willing to work WITH me rather than against me.
Why does this (nonsensical, IMO) statement keep appearing when referring to training with corrections? It is automatically brainwashed into positive trainers that corrections make a dog work against you rather than with you?

Part of the moral superiority complex that is often encountered with treat trainers is that dogs who have received corrections perform with ears back, head low and eyes averted, living in fear of the next horrible jerk on the leash. Is this not doing a disservice to the ultimate goal of having a well trained dog, with more than one method being accepted?
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:29 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Part of the moral superiority complex that is often encountered with treat trainers is that dogs who have received corrections perform with ears back, head low and eyes averted, living in fear of the next horrible jerk on the leash
But this can and does happen to a lot of dogs.. He!!, I've even seen dogs that once they've messed up a command, or their routine, the dog was panicked or would completely shut down for fear of what might happen..

The beauty of dog training... there's a million ways to reach the same end goal.. and everyone has their own way/opinion on how to get there!
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee View Post


That statement can only come from someone who knows NOTHING about clicker training, so please, for those of you thinking about starting up with the clicker, DISREGARD that statement....... As important as it is to click/treat initially with ALL initial training.......................... The next stage of CLICKER training is random reinforcement. Then fading the treats almost entirely (or entirely).
Well that just goes to show how many people are doing it wrong then, since this is what I've been told is the method by several "positive" trainers. If it is so much more complicated (as mentioned in a previous post, as compared to training with corrections) is it really useful/helpful to those with already limited time and interest in dog training?

MRL, I am not saying that clicker/treat training doesn't have its place or that it doesn't work. I simply have a problem with the "angle" that positive training has taken on correction based training in order to assert itself in the marketplace. Promoters of positive training often refer to it as cruel, unfair, not how a dog learns, violent and countless other degrading terminologies to promote "their way", which to them is the only way. I understand, this is great for business! It generally requires more sessions to achieve the same results and is more expensive, but they sell it to people based on disingenuous "feel good" marketing.

I am currently in an OB class given by a respected local SchH trainer. This class is aimed at the person who owns a powerful breed, and is correction based. As she also runs a large breed rescue, there are always highly aggressive or behaviorally challenged dogs in class. Some are so difficult that they begin with muzzles to prevent fights, and most are wearing prong collars. When it rains, there are 16 people with powerful dogs in a space marginally larger than a 2 car garage. Some of the owners are very small, older, etc. but they all love large breeds and ALL learn to control their dogs. The difference from class 1 to class 2 was incredible, and there are no clickers or treats in sight.
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