Need help

[scannergirl]

Can anyone provide some links about the technique of laying down a dog? Specifically I'm looking for information as to whether dogs do in fact do this to each other (it is my understanding that they do not but rather one submits to another)
I would also like permission to cross post the replies and links I receive to a horse forum I belong to.
Thank you

[Dainerra]

In the wild, it's more of a ritual thing. the dog will submit and the alpha dog will stand over them or sometimes hold or pin them down

one thing to remember is that in a situation where the alpha needed to force the issue the other dog would be fighting back. so, unless you are looking to possibly get bit in the face, I wouldn't recommend it.

I did once roll a dog. Our lab had gotten lost (stolen?) and we finally got him back after almost 4 months. He was laying in the yard eating a chicken quarter. I was about 2 feet behind him picking up apples. My daughter walked past him, not even looking at him coming to me. He leaped up and snapped at her with a growl. I don't even remember moving, just grabbed him by the scruff and he was on the ground on his back. But, the instant I touched him, he went limp. I held him for just a second, let him up and gave him back his bone. I don't know if it was something from him being gone, because he had never been that way before. and after that, he never did it again.

I felt bad because I should have realized it. Since he had been back, he would grumble under his breath and sometimes even take his food somewhere else. Not all the time, just some. I don't think that he was lost and starving and so felt he needed to protect food. During the time he was gone, he had gained over 10 lbs! So maybe it was because he was back on a RAW diet, but with less over-stuffing quantity?

[Dainerra]

duh, forget a link. here is a very good one. and also details why alpha rolls SEEM to work for the pros...

http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspo...lpha-roll.html

[Riley's Mom]

Check all the Cesar Millan sites and his boards, watch his show ... he's famous for using this technique. I've seen at least two opinions on the value of doing this and of course the opinions were opposite one another. I have heard people can get hurt doing this, I've done it myself long ago but for some reason stopped but not because I was afraid of my dog. I actually don't remember it's been so long. I don't even know if there was an actual reason.

Sorry, I have no authority ref your cross posting request.

[Liesje]

My understanding is that one dog trying to force down another basically equals or would likely escalate to a fight. In the wild (and in my home) dogs lie down for each other, but this is different than a dominant dog forcing another dog down, the submissive dog shows his submission by choosing to lie down.

If you have to physically force your dog down, then I wouldn't do it. If the dog lies willingly, then I guess you could do it but I'm not sure why. A calming technique?

[DSudd]

Lisa I dont have any "proof" other my my own observations but I know when we had Apollo, Rocky was very very tolerant of him, but if the "minor" corrections did not work, Rocky would put him down. IMO Apollo did not have a submissive personality and he would keep at it, until Rocky showed him enough is enough.

[selzer]

I am not sure why you need the information, if you are trying to prove the technique one way or the other to someone else or if you are thinking of using it or suggesting it for someone else.

Whether or not feral dogs and wolves lie submissively or are put there, I do not understand why people might want to imitate dog behavior. Any full grown adult can dominate a dog, either by body language and demeaner or with training aides. But why we want to be viewed as an alpha dog is a mystery to me. Alpha dogs, when weak, injured, old, are often conquered by the ruled. It is a pretty good thing that dogs are smarter than we give them credit for and understand better than we do that we are NOT an alpha dog.

[aubie]

The only "roll" we have is on their back, legs in the air in the classic "RUB MY BELLY!!" pose. I do this and they do whatever I tell them to...for the most part.

[zyppi]

Originally Posted By: aubieThe only "roll" we have is on their back, legs in the air in the classic "RUB MY BELLY!!" pose. I do this and they do whatever I tell them to...for the most part.

Yep, I wouldn't force a dog down.

I think that when they roll for belly rubs, it's the ultimate trust - exposing their vulnerability.

When your dog sees you as a trusted leader, there is no hesitation in exposing the belly.

[selzer]

My dogs will roll for a belly rub, but only when everything is relaxed and happy. I have seen dogs roll and show their bellies when petrified, peeing a little too. I find that disturbing. If my dog did that to me, I would feel like an ogre. It's like they are saying, "please don't kill me, I am nobody."