Positive training & corrections?

[JJDBike]

So I'm working on training my dogs w/ click-treat, prasie for good behavior, ignoring unwanted behavior. I also do occasional give a correction like a subtal "un-uh" if it starts to move towards an unacceptable behavior (e.g. trying to pull to mark a tree when he's supposed to be healing). If it continues I will give a clam but firm no (e.g if he starts to bark at another dog). If that dosen't work I do my best alpha low-growling no while moving infront of and overtop of him while staring them in the eyes (if he continues to go after the cat even after I told him "leave it"). I only ever need to do that w/ my young dominant boy and only did it a couple times.
What do you folks think? Is that okay? It is accetable to give corrections while utalizing "positive training methods"? If so, how, why and when?
Thanks.
JD

[JJDBike]

Oh yea, by the way, I've only used flat colllars and leash for walking my latest GSDs. Are training collars considered okay and inline with positive training methods? If so what types are generally suggested? I'm considereing a round training collar (i.e., sliding choke type but woven nylon).
Thanks.

[JerzeyGSD]

When we had an in-home trainer come, she actually used the same exact methods you are and it was considered positive reinforcement training. Although they tried to stay away from food rewards and use verbal rewards. But, whatever, that's neither here nor there. We, also, used the round training collars to give slight corrections. I don't think it would be possible to completely train a dog utilizing just praise only. You've got to correct the bad stuff and a some point or another you've got to say no!. Lol. We (well, John) has taken a nearly identical training path as you when concerning training and Jerzey has come out to be a pretty good dog. Good luck with the training!

[JJDBike]

Thanks for the reply and feedback. Glad it is working for you. We've got a long way to go. Got to admit (it is hard to do) I'm so pleased and proud that my boy is learning so fast and HE loves it, but my girl is a special needs girl w/ learning issues and I'm frustrated and disheartened. This is hard to admit because I'm a high school teacher and know and expect people to learn at different rates. Also, some love to learn while others not so much. I know that the trick w/ people is to find out what they do love and how they best learn. Probably not a lot different from dogs. Now to figure out how to do that w/ her sweet, timid, sumbissive, panicy, unfocused girl.
Thanks.
JD

[FourIsCompany]

I don't call myself a "positive trainer", but I train very much the way you describe. I am not afraid or ashamed to use corrections, but they are very mild (usually only verbal) and I use them only when necessary. I'm all for positive reinforcement, rewards and treats, but I also believe I owe it to the dog to let him know when he's doing something that is unwanted, as well as letting him know when he's doing something I want. I consider myself a more "balanced trainer".

I actually don't know why people are so anxious to be in the "positive trainer" category. I don't know what's so great about it. But to each his own.

[Cassidy's Mom]

No only is it okay to use a verbal correction, I think it's a good idea to give your dog as much information as possible during training, when they're doing it right and when they're not. I would immediately follow up a verbal correction with another command telling him what you want him to do instead, and it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing.

For me, positive training methods simply mean that instead of waiting for my dogs to do something wrong and then correcting them for it, (which does a fabulous job of teaching them what I don't want, but not such a great job of teaching them what I DO want them to do instead), I show them what I want them to do and reward them when they do it. And when I do use a correction I like to use what's often referred to as LIMA: Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive.

There are times when something more aversive may be necessary, (chasing the cat?) but I think the more of the right kind of training you do, the less of that you'll need down the road. If a dog is constantly being jerked around on a training collar corrections start to lose their impact, and it doesn't take nearly as much to have an impact on a dog that rarely gets a physical correction.

I also use eye contact and body language to get my point across - I'll body block my dogs and back them up by moving into their space. I think these are new rescue dogs you have? I'd be more careful about a hard stare with a dog I didn't know well and trust completely, but my dogs have been heavily rewarded for eye contact from the time they were very young, so I don't hesistate to use it with them.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Carla, I was still typing while you were posting, but I don't think it has anything to do with wanting be known as a positive trainer, at least it doesn't for me - I don't really care how anyone else defines how I like to train. I think there is a fundamentally different mindset between always saying no and finding ways to say yes. That doesn't mean that there will never be corrections and that if you do use corrections of any kind you're no longer a positive trainer, it just means that you look for ways to make your dog succeed instead of looking for ways to make them fail so you can correct them for it. Either way they'll learn, but it makes so much more sense to ME to train them to do what I want, because there's only one right response to any given command and numerous wrong responses.

If you train a similar way (and from your description it sounds like you do!) and think of that as balanced vs positive, that's fine with me. But I don't think giving your dog information in the form of correrections is at all in conflict with the concept of positive training, which is primarily focused on reinforcing the good. Suzanne Clothier said it best in the seminar I went to in 2008. She told us about being with a bunch of positive ONLY trainers and daring them to teach her to do something without using corrections of any kind. They took her on. She got up, walked across the room, out the door, and across the street. They said it wasn't fair - how could they teach her anything if she left? Her answer? "You didn't tell me I couldn't."

[DancingCavy]

Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomSuzanne Clothier said it best in the seminar I went to in 2008. She told us about being with a bunch of positive ONLY trainers and daring them to teach her to do something without using corrections of any kind. They took her on. She got up, walked across the room, out the door, and across the street. They said it wasn't fair - how could they teach her anything if she left? Her answer? "You didn't tell me I couldn't."

I absolutely LOVE this story. And I use it as an example often.

I use verbal corrections with Risa on occasion. But I almost always follow them with a cue for what I would like her to do instead. For example, if she barks at the neighbors outside I might say "eh eh, go bed." So the "eh eh" is a slight correction but the cue "go bed" tells her what I would prefer her to do instead. I don't use corrections when I'm training a new behavior, though. As far as I'm concerned, she can't be wrong if she doesn't know what I want yet.

[Skye'sMom]

I too use corrections in the form of verbal 'reminders.' In addition to what the others said, however, I don't think it is fair to just say 'uh-uh' without either adding or repeating a desired behavior.

So - if you dog is going where you don't want it to or doesn't sit or whatever, "uh-uh, get in or heel or sit' then praise for doing right.

Dogs don't always know what to do with themselves when they know they are wrong -they need more direction.

So - verbal word, then a command. Believe me, dogs learn quick that if 'yes' or a click means they did good, uh-uh means no-click and they want to please you.

Good job on what you are doing - I loved the Susan Clothier quotes.

[big_dog7777]

In my opinion it comes down to if you are teaching/training or proofing an exercise. It also depends on what behavior you are trying to stop or prevent from the dog. If I am teaching or training an exercise (or a new variation of an exercise, or combining exercises early on, etc.) then a simple "nope" and withhold reward is correction enough. If the dog understands exactly what I want, and decides not to do it or delay in doing it after I've built up speed then I'm going to correct the dog and it's probably going to be a prong collar correction. I'm also going to give a pop for ignoring me and focusing on something else (dog, person, etc.).

Originally Posted By: JJDBikeIf that dosen't work I do my best alpha low-growling no while moving infront of and overtop of him while staring them in the eyes (if he continues to go after the cat even after I told him "leave it"). I only ever need to do that w/ my young dominant boy and only did it a couple times.

In my opinion dominating, posturing, growling, pinning, yelling, hitting all fall into the same category in a dogs eyes. A fight for their life is near or is actually happening. It can push a dog into fight or flight, or they may just shut down. Either way you have not proven anything to the dog. Weak dogs just get scared, strong dogs may think that next time if they fight harder (or bring it at you right away if they did not react last time) they may win. The way to truely be the baddest toughest creature in the world to your dog is to be calm in the face of conflict and control them in a "matter of fact" manner. There are some things that require a high level correction for some dogs. Administer that with a leash and collar, without any personal feelings and remain on an even keel. Your dog will follow you, never feel threatened by you and think you are the biggest baddest thing on the planet whether you're 5'1" and 95lbs, or 6'6" and 300lbs.