German Shepherds Forum banner

Questions about (British) slip lead

14K views 87 replies 14 participants last post by  WembleyDogsUK 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have ordered this leash last week, it has just arrived home and I have a few questions about it.

I have been walking my 7 month old pup with a (another) slip lead for a week now, the difference is that I could not lock it behind the ears. The main problem I have encountered is that he has no issue choking himself if he sees another dog/cat. An example: I am walking on a path through the woods and someone with a dog is coming, I cannot go back (I'll be dragging my pup the whole way), there are high bushes on both sides, so I can't go there either. I just have to wait until they pass. He will lunge so much into the leash that he cannot bark anymore because of how tight it is, he is just opening and closing his mouth without any sound coming out. When the person has passed and he finally rests, you see him gasping for air.
This is an extreme situation, because most of the times I can get out of the way (sometimes the luring with food also helps).
I do not want to damage my boy's throat.. My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault. I prefer not having my pup pass out.

How tight should the leash be behind the ears? Should I be able to fit two fingers? I feel the leash is sliding down easily..
 
See less See more
#2 ·
WHAT?????!!!!!!

My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault.

.


First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea.

Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.
 
#3 ·
WHAT?????!!!!!!





First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea.

Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.
Big concerns about the trainer . BIG concerns "My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault."


Sorry , this person does not sound competent.

find your talent in the Ring clubs -- you must have some IPO or
Mondio / KNPV -

from your other posts your dog is very reactive -- and bad mannered.

in some post you said he jumps up and bites people who pet him because he is excited.
you don't correct him , but you get hot headed when the person tries to get some control , asking your dog to off or sit .

he over reacts when seeing dogs .

you have no connection with the dog --

instead of your scheduled 3 walks a day lastng from 45 minutes to an hour and a half - take this dog , and do 15 minutes at a time which will be intense and focused and he will be performing for you , monkey style or not, because you demand it of him.

you can not let this dog go into his zone where he shuts you out .

he isn't thinking enough -- no connection to you - he is in his universe .

reward only for good behaviour. Because he is excitable , can't cap , reward should be calm , maybe reinforced by a finger nail size bit of dry liver .

the behaviour is in his genes , his future is in your hands ,
you will always need to be proactive - on top of things .

difficult dog --

post a pedigree
 
#4 ·
I don't think slip leads are appropriate for puppies, because of the intense strain on a dog's neck, especially if pulling. I'd highly recommend a front-hooking harness for your puppy. Slip leads can be appropriate for a well-trained dog who is navigating in a casual, low-stakes environment, but your trainer sounds fairly misguided about how to teach a dog how to properly walk on a leash.
 
#5 ·
When I used a dominant dog collar....basically a slip lead collar similar to the collar/lead combo you posted...but much thinner and no lead built into it.....and most likely more quick to the punch as far as the correction goes....I had it fitted much tighter than I assumed it should be.....but I trusted the trainers I was working with. The DDC was up very high on the dog's neck and tight so it would not move around at all. I had a short tab attached to the DDC and then looped around the 6 foot lead which went to a flat or prong collar.....if I ever needed to pop the prong collar..I could do so without engaging the DDC attached to the tab. I only used the DDC for a particular behavior....DA related. I was also instructed that when I engaged the DDC it was done with straight upward pressure...no jerking...or exaggerated pressure...just a steady even straight up motion on the tab close to the dog's neck...until the dog's front paws were off the ground. Pressure on the tab and DDC was ended when the dog settled back into a sitting heel position or got its crap together and maintained a heeling position. During this training...I would have my right hand on the 6 foot lead ....with it coiled up in my hand...and my left hand on the tab to the DDC, being ready to apply the upward pressure if the dog broke from the commanded position due to it's reactivity with other dogs. It was a short process when I used the DDC because of its effectiveness.

The problem I see with the type of leash and collar you posted is it would be difficult to apply the proper upward pressure at times as well as the slip lead being so much thicker than a DDC....the correction would be less or take longer to get to the degree necessary to have the dog desist.

Also...it seems like using the leash/collar you posted allows the dog to pick its own level of correction and torment....and as it pulls against the slip lead the ensuing progression of cutting its air off might just incite the dog even more. My observation of how a DDC worked so effectively was there were no varying degrees of correction due to the dog pulling or lunging....once the dog's front pads were off the ground ....it was "engaged". It was also made very clear to me that the DDC was only to be used for a specific reason...

I never had my dog pass out or come close while using the DDC but she certainly did experience some discomfort from the correction..

I don't know if the use of a DDC was what helped beat my dog's reactivity all on it's own...I truly think it was a combination of many factors and trained obedience was huge....yes, the consequence for the dog losing it's crap in the presence of another dog was harsh during this phase but it was short and to the point. Perhaps more significantly....was all the additional obedience and focus training and learning how to get the dog to give me her engagement is what ultimately got her to come around. She was taught a viable option to replace her losing her marbles lunging and wanting to kill the other dog attitude. To this day, I don't think she cares much for other dogs....except a few.. but she keeps her crap together because of a combination of many factors...mostly the fact that she has to adhere to the obedience training we worked on...and the consequence for staying in line with her training is incredibly rewarding for her.

One other thought....once my dog was connecting the dots...I was instructed on how to use the DDC with subtle pressure when the dog exhibited any precursory behaviors leading up to the dog losing it's crap and doing the lunging breaking command baloney. My dog generally will lower her head a bit....lock on with both eyes and ears will pivot forward...if she exhibited any of her postures...I would just apply a slight amount of pressure to the DDC ...nothing like I would to lift her fronts off the ground.....and the dog would chill. Obviously, catching them before they lose their crap with the slightest reminder ...seemed to work great.

I also watched the DDC being used for handler aggression as well as a dog not coming off a bite once it was latched on to the decoy....besides that I have never seen it used as a primary collar like the slip lead you have. It's an effective tool and one I would have never used unless I was under the guidance of someone who really knew their "stuff".

Much of what I have posted is pretty crude and perhaps in error....I am certain there are other members in here that can critique my attempt at explaining this process.....I hope they do as it will help me going forward understanding the process as well as you.

Of course....when the dog does comply....ya gotta let them know in a big way.

SuperG
 
#6 ·
harnesses are garbage for training

I have seen so much restricted, impaired movement with ill fitting harnesses --

great for sled dogs -- weight pulling dogs -- when you want to teach aggitation work where the dog does pull into the harness

part of the opposition reflex

this is a 7 month old youth dog , who is damaging his trachea with his current equipment and improper application of a smart correction
 
#7 ·
Slip collar are great for suppression but as SuperG said, it's a single correction. Take the breath away for a split second and reengage their brains. It's not ever supposed to be choke them, or let them choke themselves, to the point of unconscious.

I used a slip collar for exactly this. It took two corrections and hasn't behaved like a jerk since.
 
#10 ·
@Jax08
I understand, it doesn't have much effect correcting him if I can't reward the right behavior. I am having difficulty with this part, as is probably apparent by my many threads here.. I try to reward him for walking nicely next to me for example, but that behavior is so temporary that I'm sometimes not even quick enough to reward it. I can offer him a high value treat (dried bovine heart), but he will lose his focus almost immediately if there's another dog close by. I have emailed an applied behavior therapist and requested private training. She is on vacation until the 4th of July, so I need to wait a bit. I hope she doesn't have a tight schedule.. I will also talk with her about using a prong, because I do not trust my inexperienced self with such a tool.
@carmspack
I agree with you, it doesn't sound like a competent person. She's not my main trainer though. But it does bear the question if not all the trainers at that school are like that.

I just discovered there is a KNPV association in my town, never knew it existed here. Are you suggesting to join such an association, or to find a trainer in those places?

That's partly true, he does indeed get overexcited and because of that will almost always jump and bite. But I do correct him. Maybe not in the right way. What I mentioned about people telling him to sit was just that some people seem to think dogs are performing monkeys. They try to give commands to test if the dog listen well enough.

My instructor, the one who had dogs passing out on a slip lead, said I needed to establish a better connection with my dog. That he gets too much for free, without working for it. So she advised me to feed him his kibble from my hands, and I'm trying to incorporate NILF in our daily life. But as hard as it may sound to myself, I think you're right, I have not succeeded in establishing a good connection with my dog.

Thanks for those tips. Just to make it clear for myself. You are saying I should go many times outside with him for short bursts of time and do intensive training? Heel, sit, down, walking, at a fast pace? Or am I seeing this wrong?

I like that sentence, his future is indeed in my hands..

I will post the pedigree of his parents.

Father
Mother
@SuperG
I really like reading how others have managed training their dogs. It really helps. Thanks for the long reply.
The slip lead I have posted an image of is 9mm (1/3inch). Was the DDC you used thinner than that? The only thinner ones I found were show leads.

I've watched a few instructional videos about the slip lead and how to correct upwards. I tried to do it on our walk today, and I think I did it alright, but it didn't help as a correction method. He would go form focusing on a dog (then followed a correction), to focus on the ground and sniff. Even calling him to look at me would not help anything, he just wanted to walk away to sniffing paradise. It's frustrating, because at home he complies much more, he listens much better and is far more calm in general.
 
#11 ·
Here's the link to the DDC I bought. There's some good information on this page as well.

Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar?

I noticed at the very bottom of the page it shows both a dominant dog slip lead and a British slip lead....if the ratio is correct in the pics....the British slip lead looks considerably thicker.

I bought just the collar not the lead/collar combo.

Oh, mine was fitted even tighter than the one show as correct....there was no slack whatsoever....any pressure on the tab attached to the DDC engaged it immediately as there was no slack to pick up at all

SuperG
 
#13 ·
Henricus,

This Steve Strom character makes a lot of sense and helped me out tremendously when I was struggling with my dog's reactivity. In my long-winded reply to you in this thread I mentioned ..."I don't know if the use of a DDC was what helped beat my dog's reactivity all on it's own...I truly think it was a combination of many factors and trained obedience was huge...." I believe this is what Steve is hitting on...and it works...

I had to throw the "character" in, otherwise this post would have been sarcasm free.

SuperG
 
#28 ·
Exactly -- this kind of dog , who loses his mind , needs a decisive handler

as I said "
instead of your scheduled 3 walks a day lastng from 45 minutes to an hour and a half - take this dog , and do 15 minutes at a time which will be intense and focused and he will be performing for you , monkey style or not, because you demand it of him."

you will demand , not waiver or excuse inappropriate behaviour away . Teach him what you want him to do - no leeway

what have you been doing with the trainer ?

there is that zone
"She was only there for about 20 seconds, but I could not get his attention back. I could not walk with him anymore, because he was extremely alert, looking around constantly. Didn't matter what I did, luring with food, calling him, etc:''

he blocks everything out , in his own universe .
You would get more control in teaching the heel - fuss , au pied --
than a sit or a down although once you say those words he must do it .
When you walk the dog has to be aware of you . He has to pay some attention . In a static exercise his mind can drift.

A more "blitz" correction can be given in motion -- dog even looks towards another dog , and snap he gets a lightning fast surprise of a correction done is such a way that the dog thinks it comes from his behaviour and not from you.

video -- yeah why didn't you make his do something -- even if you were to frustrate him by turning away and walking the opposite direction -- make him sit , make him do ANYTHING .

you make a good post - lol , you didn't drift around

this is how the dog wins .

poo schmoo --- he waited this long , he can wait longer
 
#16 ·
@Steve Strom
This is the reason I have stated before that I must be a terrible dog trainer. Don't think I have neglected your advice, because I have not. I have been doing the "ready" and "done" on a daily basis. I just train the "sit" command, like you said, nothing more. I tried to change it to "down" after about two weeks, but he is very suspicious of going down when we're outside, he'll keep looking around continuously. He won't do more than two or three downs. He can do sit and down at a relatively fast pace indoors, but only a few times.
I have made too many threads, that is very true. It really shows my insecurity in how to handle my pup and the fear of doing something wrong.

I have been searching for a good collar for a while, mainly because the reactivity and the pulling is too much for me. It hurts my shoulder and really takes away the fun of walking him. But I understand, like said in the beginning, that the reinforcer of the tool is much more important than the tool itself.

I recorded this two hours ago. I went outside with him and my mother appeared on the other side of the road (not a small distance) to see where my sister was, he saw her and I lost him, completely. She was only there for about 20 seconds, but I could not get his attention back. I could not walk with him anymore, because he was extremely alert, looking around constantly. Didn't matter what I did, luring with food, calling him, etc. He would start running to one side, I would pull him back, and he'd run to the other side.
He reacts much worse when it is me he sees and he is indoors for example.
(sorry for the video, it was too much at that moment to remember I had to film in landscape. Also the sound is terrible because I had my earphones in, the mic is broken.)



@LuckyG
Thanks for the link!

Also, I do not really get if the last three comments are serious, or just meant to poke around. :)
 
#21 ·
Also, I do not really get if the last three comments are serious, or just meant to poke around. :)

They were aimed at another situation...where I asked a question...and have yet to see a response ......different thread.

Good looking dog and not nearly as bad as you described.....I like Jax08's comment..." I think your dog is just being a punk."

Oh, that slip lead is absolutely useless if that is how you have been instructed to use it....I'm not trying to be a prick either .....just an observation.

SuperG
 
#18 ·
I didn't think of it at that moment. I know he needed to poo, so I was trying to get him on the grass, which eventually worked. Quite stupid if I think about it.
However, when I returned home he wouldn't sit before crossing the road. In my experience, he can sit at those moments, but will not give his attention to me. And this is the problem right here; I do not know how to react.
 
#22 ·
With that leash, I would have stepped up next to him and with a short grip, choked him. Get him settled down, then give him a chance to be correct. Don't reward him if you had to correct first, reward the rep that follows, where he was correct on his own.

Personally though, I'd get rid of the slip lead type things and use a prong. Be more proactive in correcting before it ever gets to a point of needing to choke him.
 
#19 ·
I think your dog is just being a punk. As soon as he starts that, walk up next to him, calmly lift up for a correction and tell him Sit. That's what a choke correction collar is for. CALMLY. No emotion. And you keep doing it until he sits.

No pulling him back. No calling to him. No treats. You choke up on your leash and you correct him. When he sits quietly then he gets a treat. And you do this each and every time. Zero exceptions.
 
#20 ·
This is what's so hard to explain on the internet.As soon as he saw your Mom, in instant BEFORE he reacted you give him a FIRM correction.Then it's "SIT!Look at me!"Good boy!Go on with your walk.Ask your trainer to show you.
Yeah SuperG and Steve were joking:)
 
#24 ·
@Jax08
Thanks for the help. I really need to remind myself to stay calm and emotionless.
Not that it's important - and probably a very uninformed question - but I saw your reaction to SuperG's question about his dog's pedigree, what does a pedigree tell you (other than the HD,ED,IPO etc)?
@dogma13
Yes, these things are difficult to help with through the internet. But you guys have been such a enormous help for me. I'm kind of a sloth some times, I saw my mother on the other side and only thought about my pups reaction after he reacted.. But thanks for the help, I need to imprint these things in my brain. :)
I thought so after his last message, but wasn't quite sure. :)
@SuperG
Yes, I should've seen it, very obvious when I read it now. As I said to dogma, I'm kind of a sloth some (many) times.

He's not that bad at all, if I have ever given that impression then it is due to commenting right after something happened, instead of cooling down before I write. I do realize I seem very hot headed (have said it myself somewhere here), but I'm actually known for being very serene.. Stress...
Anyway, totally off track.
What you're seeing there is not how I've been instructed to use it, but those are my natural skills.
On a serious note, I have not been formally instructed yet, that will happen next Monday. In that particular moment I was not using it how I would normally use it (because of wanting to post a video here). I normally keep him very close and keep the leash going up from his neck in my left hand, loosely. I then pull it in an upwards motion to correct him.
@Steve Strom
That's an important things to remember, not to reward him when I have corrected him, but only the rep afterwards in this case. I have probably done that wrong many times.

Yes, I need to be far more alert of my surroundings, and therefore his.
I fear the use of a prong, wouldn't he hurt himself because of his reactiveness? I understand I need the guidance of someone who is experienced with the use of such a tool.
 
#25 ·
I don't know anything about the pedigree. I sent it to a friend and she gave her thoughts :)

Alot of what's in the dog is genetic. Whether a dog is handler sensitive, hard, handler aggressive, their grip, tracking ability, work ethics. If a person knows the dogs behind the pedigree, they can give insight into the dog in front of you :)
 
#33 ·
OK then ... lots of "problems" here but the good news is you've taken the first important step in solving your "issues" ...." out think your dog!" So let's see what we can do here?? :)

The clip is actually helpful ... and no ... none of that is right. But before I begin a question are "Prong Collars" available where you are?? Just curious I don't use one myself although I could but ... as I am want to say ... "there always that guy." And questions about a SLL ... yeah ... that's me. :)

Sooo ... right now, you need to teach your dog how to walk properly on leash (yeah I know ... no crap) but you can't do that by correcting him around the block ... back to basics ... see the first clip here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And that is done with a flat leash and a buckle collar about as "tool free" as you can get ( no more tools than necessary is kinda my thing.) If you get that "principle" down, you can walk any dog. People get lost and confused looking for "checkbook solutions"
as I term it. I prefer to advise back to basics ... one tool and understanding how to use it "properly" is the best solution. :)

With your dog ... I can "guarantee" you that a trainer that is skilled in the use of a "SLL" would have him walking properly in less than 4 minutes! The first thing they would do is postion the "SLL" properly and that means use use the little "tabby" thing and postion the "SLL" high and snuck on the dog's neck ... that's it. As soon as the dog tries to move ... you wait! The dog my protest, rear up fight ... you wait. He will at some point, figure it out ... "well this "crap" ain't working" and at that point he will stop and most likey ... Sit and wait for instructions?? At that point you say ... "OK" and go. Pretty much , that simple.:)

Flaw number two "corrections" in the clip ... the dog is out front and pulling! That's pretty much a lose, lose proposition! Your gonna be like this guy:


A dog is "strongest" pulling forward, I doubt you weigh several "thousand pounds???" And even if you did ... it would not matter:



So ... don't play there game, a "slight" tug "sideways" throws them off balance and stops the "Crap!" "Out think your dog" as it were. Here is what that looks like:



And while "Sit" which your dog apparently does not want to do?? Is nice ... it really means nothing to the dog, "Sit" in my view does not really take then out of there "comfort zone" a dog can Sit" and still act like a "fool." If you want to drop the hammer on them ... you tell them "DOWN" and "STAY!" Down means ... "playtime is over!" My "Boxer" showed me that one, her flews, would puff out in protest over "Down" it meant ... "Play Time" is over! Teaching that looks like this.:



And as regards "Sit" no need to address it directly "flank your dog" teach "Sit" like this:


Address the "issue" indirectly as it were.

And yes Jeff is using a "Prong Collar" but it makes no difference, a properly postion SLL, can achieve the same effect. It just requires a bit more energy, the correction however is "still" a slight tug sideways.


And ... right now most likely, your only addressing the walk and the other dogs "issues" and your trying to do that with a dog that is a bit over the top?? No problem, you need to change his "attitude" and the best way to do that is to make life a bit more structured for the next 30 days. Train the Place Command, do Sit on the Dog, and institute a "No Free Roaming" in the house policy. Crate training would also be good idea but your call there, in any case indoors the dog should be in his Crate or in Place period ... "No Free Roaming" in the house. Details on that and
"The Place Command" and "Crate" training are here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And ... finally as to "specifically" the subject matter of the thread "SLL" ... here you go:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


And since you mentioned other dogs take a look here:

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

But your dog needs to understands the "basics" of "walking properly first" and then you can work on the, other dog crap! And yes a DDC or SLL used as one work just fine. Or ... a pop on the head with the loose end of the leash for "slightly" annoying other dog behaviour ... works out fine.

Finally ... as always ask questions. :)
 
#34 ·
Henricus, your dog is not going to respond to anything the way that Golden Retriever did. The little tightening of the collar is only going to build even more opposition and the subtle directional pops will probably do the same. Downing your dog is more of a submissive position, but if you try it for control out in the public where he's wound up like in the video, its going to be a fight and the conflict over it with you won't be worth it right now. Working on a place command at home is a good idea, but for control in public, a sit will be just fine as long as you remember, he has to sit. If his butt isn't flat on the ground, he isn't sitting.

You aren't trying to get him out of any comfort zone Henricus, you're looking to do the opposite. Create a comfort zone of correct behavior. Your dog isn't as bad as you think, but he's more determined right now to do things other then what you want. The scared, nervous Golden having to be drug around has to be handled gently like that. Your's needs a little heavier hand. With a dog like that, or maybe if you started it right away, the blurring of the uses of a slip or prong aren't a big deal. Your dog has habits that need to be stopped so the difference in the uses, pops vs choke are going to matter more.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top