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-   -   Punishment in Training (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/449993-punishment-training.html)

PMRonan 05-14-2014 07:09 AM

Punishment in Training
 
While i personally perfer and use positive reinforcement training, I am tired of hearing that punishment train is ineffective. It isn't. It was used for more that a couple hundred years and is still used today. Just because you don't like it, and would not dream of putting your own dog into that situation doesn't mean it isn't an effective way to teach a dog. MOST older videos or pictures of dog that are doing some pretty amazing things were trained with punishment more than reward.

That is just how it was. Just because the new positive reinforcement craze also happens to be an easier and, in a lot of cases, faster way to train, doesn't mean that it is "the way to train" Just like I do not prefer treat training, I prefer physical affection.

Some people think their treat training is better, however, I get my results from affection faster because I enjoy doing it more that creating a treat driven animal. Now, I understand, a lot of people treat train and phase the treats out, it works very well for them. I just don't really get into it.

I have treats for my dogs, I throw them out at random for a random command being followed. I just am tired of people acting like the last 1000 years didn't happen. They did. Dogs learned quickly what to do to avoid punishment.

My grandmother bred and trained Irish Setters, with a rolled up magazine and ground meat. Now? She spoils her yorkie rotten and walks him 4 times a day, methods have changed. But, don't act like it wasn't effective.

Baillif 05-14-2014 07:23 AM

Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training | Adherence to a flawed ideology resembles nothing so much as abject stupidity…GW

I'll just leave this here.

Positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement are great for training dog stuff you want your dog to do. Sit down stands etc. When most clients bring a dog in for board and train though 9 times out of 10 it's because there's a behavior they need stopped and they need it stopped fast. No better way to do it than positive punishment.

When it comes right down to it positive punishment is the quadrant that saves dogs lives.

PMRonan 05-14-2014 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baillif (Post 5515881)
Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training | Adherence to a flawed ideology resembles nothing so much as abject stupidity…GW

I'll just leave this here.

Positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement are great for training dog stuff you want your dog to do. Sit down stands etc. When most clients bring a dog in for board and train though 9 times out of 10 it's because there's a behavior they need stopped and they need it stopped fast. No better way to do it than positive punishment.

When it comes right down to it positive punishment is the quadrant that saves dogs lives.

My Hero Baillif! That is an awesome site. Good reference!

PMRonan 05-14-2014 07:40 AM

And sorry for the rant. I was at the pet store yesterday buying food, and I've seen it a couple times on here, when these two people were standing around talking cash **** about a guy that uses SOME punishment. The words "Just not effective" kept being used and i went home and stewed over it and woke up this morning even more angry at the ignorance that an animal that does everything through body language and tactile response wouldn't understand punishment.

Baillif 05-14-2014 07:45 AM

Improperly used or inconsistently used they're right. Not that effective, but if you punish consistently and fairly it's super effective especially when you make sure to remove opportunities for the dog to reinforce itself on the behavior again.

It's one of those things though. Once you decide to open that door you should stick with it till the undesired behavior is done. Otherwise you're no better than the drunk dad that comes home every once in a while and beats his kids.

JeanKBBMMMAAN 05-14-2014 07:47 AM

Here's a neat article:
How Technology from 30 Years Ago is Helping Military Dogs Perform Better Now | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

They do use aversives - but less than 1/1000th of a time.

Strangely (never thought it was strange until I read how many dogs my kind of methods have killed apparently) I have/had dogs who would be dead and have not used positive punishment with them in terms of any aversives stronger than a verbal, or as in the article above if they put themselves or someone else at risk (rare and usually just dog to dog posturing that needs to be body bumped - something that happens when you live with more than 2 dogs integrated as a pack). So it can be done, easily and naturally. I come from a background of working with people/kids, so using strong aversives is not an option, and it is second nature for me to pick behavioral interventions that are clear and that work. I know it works, I have a pack of dogs and former foster dogs that show it.

If people want to train dogs their way, that's their business, just getting tired of reading all over the place on this board that the way that many of the rest of train, is wrong, dangerous, and doesn't work.

PMRonan 05-14-2014 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN (Post 5515977)
Here's a neat article:
How Technology from 30 Years Ago is Helping Military Dogs Perform Better Now | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

They do use aversives - but less than 1/1000th of a time.

Strangely (never thought it was strange until I read how many dogs my kind of methods have killed apparently) I have/had dogs who would be dead and have not used positive punishment with them in terms of any aversives stronger than a verbal, or as in the article above if they put themselves or someone else at risk (rare and usually just dog to dog posturing that needs to be body bumped - something that happens when you live with more than 2 dogs integrated as a pack). So it can be done, easily and naturally. I come from a background of working with people/kids, so using strong aversives is not an option, and it is second nature for me to pick behavioral interventions that are clear and that work. I know it works, I have a pack of dogs and former foster dogs that show it.

If people want to train dogs their way, that's their business, just getting tired of reading all over the place on this board that the way that many of the rest of train, is wrong, dangerous, and doesn't work.


Exactly! No one here trains dogs exactly like someone else. I just don't get why people are so brazen about voicing their unsolicited and unwanted opinions on other people's training?

Just like I personally would not want to send my dog off to a trainer to come back trained. But that is how one of my neighbors makes his living. I like his style of training. it works great. But i don't want to send my dog to him, however, the people that do are doing so because it lines up with their value map to have a professional train their dog so they don't accidentally train them incorrectly.

Some people just can't let others be different.

blackshep 05-14-2014 08:09 AM

I think positive reinforcement is great for teaching a new command, shaping behaviours, for puppies etc but it has to be balanced. At some point, when the dog knows better and chooses to ignore you, you need to correct it (I don't like using the word punish, training shouldn't be about punishing, but it's all semantics, I suppose).

Leerburg | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training

Baillif 05-14-2014 08:38 AM

Foster dogs and rescues are usually screened. The dogs that needed it were already given the needle or are labelled unadoptable and slated for it.

Body blocks raised voices and all that jazz are positive punishment enough for a lot of dogs. Then there are the dogs out there that don't give a crap. When all the force free stuff doesn't work they start wondering if the dog needs to be heavily medicated. Then you hear oh the dog isn't wired right put it down.

Done right positive punishment doesn't need to be applied that often. I don't punish my dog all day. It happens very rarely which is a wonder considering what gets asked of him.

Shade 05-14-2014 09:15 AM

When you train there should be a goal in sight that you're working towards, so every action counts. Good things get immediate rewards and bad things get immediate corrections (mine mostly is a simple calm verbal "ah!" to let them know to stop and try again).

It's a lot easier on both trainer and dog if you have a marker. Think about it this way, we're limited in communication so here's a basic rule - do this and you get a positive and do that and you get a negative. Just like the game 'hot and cold' and the more clues (markers) you give to show the right way the easier and faster the reward comes! The jackpot (correct behaviour) at the end is the reward for both parties

When people use the term punishment I think most jump immediately to physical corrections and pain. Thoughts of a screaming human beating the crap out of the dog because it disobeyed the sit command, for 95% of trainers that assumption is completely false


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