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Back to the Basics...

3K views 39 replies 10 participants last post by  Blanketback 
#1 ·
Gosh... she hates me right now. :p

I have decided that she's had too much freedom and is taking advantage of it.

So... what are we doing?

She's losing all her freedom and is now on a leash at all times unless she's in her crate, eventually that will extend to off-leash within the backyard as well, but for at least a few more days, just the leash and crate. Just started this like... 20 minutes ago. She's whining and upset and trying to push the leash boundaries.

It'll be like crate training all over again... except I can't just shove her in a different room. :crazy:

BUT... it'll be good for her. Teach her to pay attention to me and what I'm doing, stick around with me, be calm when I'm sitting and calm. That I'm the only thing that matters in her life.

Eventually she'll have free reign over the house and be let off leash again. But that's not for a while. ;)
 
#3 ·
So to teach her to pay attention to you you're gonna just tether her to you all day? That's gonna teach her you're the only thing that matters in her life?

The dog should choose to pay attention to you because you are fun. You shouldn't have to make her. Can't believe I'm saying this but David Taggart is spot on.
 
#4 ·
I am going to teach her to pay attention to me. And I do try to do that anyways. Any interaction with me is pleasurable... the problem is getting her to interact with me, since she'd rather interact with my other dog or go explore the house or the yard.

It's not a punishment as much as "if you are with me and calm, wonderful things can happen".

It's NOT just keeping her tethered to me. Keeping her tethered to me is to make it easier on ME. To teach her to pay attention to me, I am rewarding any interaction with me instead of the rest of the world with a huge big to do, treats, etc. It's not just tethering her to me and ignoring her while I go about my day. Not at all.
 
#5 ·
So far she is doing pretty well. She's whining and upset that she can't go off and do her own thing, but every time she looks at me for direction, she gets a huge amount of love and praise. It's the whining and trying to get away that I'm ignoring.
 
#9 ·
She's 14 weeks old. I had never done this before, and was too busy to pay much attention to her when we weren't training or actively doing stuff. MY FAULT I KNOW. She is a VERY quick learner and already knows about 16 actual commands. Had her since she was 7 weeks.

It's just been a gradual thing, of her ignoring me inside the house, choosing to go play with my older dog rather than be around me, that kind of stuff.

Just started this today, and again, it's not being used as a punishment by any means. Just as an active way for me to keep a closer eye on her and reinforce her housebreaking as well as her voice commands. I am not doing leash corrections or anything like that. She's just on a leash laying by my feet or on a leash when we're around doing things. Just keeps her near me, and any active choice to come to me or look at me and ignoring my older dog (who really couldn't care less about her) is being praised generously.

I'll probably let her off leash to run in the park since she still has awesome recall there. But right now it's more just leash training, and reinforcing her needing to come when called when inside the house.

As I said. THIS IS NOT A PUNISHMENT. Just a way for me to keep a closer eye on her and reinforce things she already knows. Probably won't be very long that I'm doing this... my guess is a couple days on the short leash, a few days on the long leash, and a few more just in general, and done, and she can be off leash again.


ETA: I don't see why something has to have happened for me to do this? She's not a bad dog. Just needs a few more boundaries when inside the home right now, IT'S NOT PERMANENT, AND IT'S NOT A PUNISHMENT.
 
#10 ·
Your dog is a very young still and I would think that like human babies they have developmental stages and milestones. Why don't you want your pup to go explore for a little while and learn new things, let it have a little socialization with your other dog. Are you playing with your dog, doing puppy things helping it learn bite inhibition, letting it socialize with other humans?

Although you don't view this as punishment, your pup may. I just feel that developmentally, your pup is not mature enough to focus all of its attention on you for long periods of time.
Could you contact your breeder and learn what you should expect from your pup as it grows?
 
#11 ·
I don't know of any dog of any breed that is obedient and behaves at 14 weeks.

Whatever you do don't zap the fun out of it or by 7 or 8 months you'll hit the "teenage" phase and a dog that could care less what you say. 16 commands already seems like the fun has already been zapped out....
 
#12 · (Edited)
First off. No breeder. She was a rescue. The "breeder" is a POS lady who left for two weeks without any food or water for 8 puppies, and wanted to charge and lie by saying that they were full bred GSD puppies when they obviously weren't. All 8 puppies were rescued and are fine.

And really, it's not a punishment. She can still explore and go do what she wants, provided it is within the leash range (and I do let it out to its full range). It's not a matter of having her 100% attention on me. That's not what I'm after. I'm looking for manners on a leash and to have her within my line of sight, because she has been getting into things she shouldn't when she's not within my line of sight.

She has great bite inhibition. I do play with her every single day for at least 20-30 minutes in addition to a walk and going to the park whenever we can. She does get socialization with other humans and places (she had her first elevator ride the other day and did REALLY REALLY well, new things are just so much fun for her, and she adores new people), and with other dogs as well. And I'm not keeping her from my older dog, just making sure that when I call her back, I can call her back. THAT IS ALL.

I actually took her off the leash because she was doing well and stopped whining and she is in the same room as me and in my line of sight (same as I would if she was her in crate, it's not a matter of keeping her within 5 inches of me, but allowing me to know where she is/what she's doing). She's still sitting by my side eagerly looking for more attention/treats. I do clicker training with her and positive reinforcement.

But whatever. I was sharing... guess I shouldn't have. My pup is the furthest thing from abused, but at the same time, I expect consistency. From myself as well as from her. If I'm not consistent in expecting a "come" every time I say it, I'm setting her up to pick and choose whether or not to come. So... I have her on a leash that she can explore and do her own things on, and it's to reinforce the "come" and leash manners more than anything else. She learns quickly, and from what she's doing now, I'm thinking only a day or two more of this and it'll be back to normal.


I HAVE modified my plan with this from when I first posted this. Not because of people thinking or saying "what did your dog do to you that made you punish it this way?", but because of me amending/refining my goal. My goal is to reinforce "come" and to keep her within my line of sight. And she has done GREAT GREAT GREAT so far. She was playing with my older dog just now and I said "come", and she came running immediately. That was just a quick reinforcement (both positive and physical in pulling her with the leash to reinforce a couple times). It clicked, and now we're good on that front. It's just leash manners and not going into a whining frenzy when she's on it and wants off. Just more desensitization and understanding the way things work by ignoring poor behavior and rewarding heavily good behavior.

Sorry I bothered you guys.


ETA: And I'm not zapping the fun out of anything. She is playing, both with me and my older dog. She is having fun. She is wanting to do things for me. She is happy. I'm not expecting her to be a perfect statue. Far from it. BUT... I won't put up with whining and ignoring a simple command that she KNOWS... just because we are in the house. I train once a day, in the evenings. The rest of the time is nap time and play time. And with training time, I switch things up, and teach new things only once she knows an old thing. She learns QUICKLY. Not sure if it's the GSD in her or the Aussie/Border Collie or what. But she loves training time, which isn't even every day, and I don't expect perfection, just the general idea. We can work on perfection when she's older. She gets high value treats and the "tricks" are all fun things that either she displays on her own and I captured or simple things like "sit, come, down, stay".

But I don't have to explain myself to y'all... my pup is happy and joyful and awesome and despite this little "hiccup" (which isn't really a hiccup, just dealing with a small problem, which so far seems to have already sorted itself out in this short of time, we'll see how tomorrow goes), loves everything she does, and is a very happy pup. Loves to explore and try new things and meet new people. I go at HER pace with stuff. Not mine. If she wants to learn all of these things and go to these places, then I do so. I try something, and if she goes with it, then I continue. If she doesn't, I stop, and go back several paces. I never force anything on her. This leash thing has been the only restrictions to learning and exploring she's ever had. And it's because she was ignoring her basics. So, we're reinforcing them, and then the reinforcement goes away.
 
#13 ·
Her "commands" are as followed (not are at 100%, nor do I expect them all to be, and some are just purely for fun):

1. come (this is the only one I expect to be 100%, because I live in a rural area and it can be a big safety thing)
2. sit
3. stay
4. down
5. here (go to the place I'm pointing at by me)
6. up (get on couch, in car, etc)
7. crate
8. place
9. touch
10. paw
11. back up (she absolutely loves this one)
12. heel (in training)
13. leave it/eh eh
14. aus (out/drop it, only if I'm also holding something)
15. stand
16. take
17. roll over

They are all very simple. None of which have I done anything but use lures or free-shaping to accomplish. And like I said, not all are 100%, nor do I expect them to be at this time. But she eagerly tries to do all for me. She enjoys it and her tail never stops wagging. If she resisted or was upset or fearful at any time, we would not be doing any of these things.
 
#15 ·
I do think you would get a lot more success out of her if you engaged with her more, gave her a reason to want to do things right away when you ask and made it very fun for her.

Sorry, but at 14 weeks, saying good dog and petting them is probably not nearly as fun as getting to fly back to a tug and romp around for a few minutes.

I also find 25-30 minutes of play for a puppy this old with huge training goals very minimal. My puppies are engaged at least 75% of the time they are loose in the house as puppies to continue building that relationship and drive to work for me.
 
#16 ·
Sorry, but saying good dog and petting is NOT all I do to engage. Praise means fawning over her, trying to get her interested in her toys and tugs (she's not very toy motivated at all), high value treats, etc.

But... Whatever. Was trying to share something I was doing that I learned ON HERE, that so far is working wonderfully for what I was wanting to achieve. My pup is not abused, her life, and yes, "training" is fun and joyful, not a monotonous death toll. She WANTS to train. I bring out my fanny pack and she gets so excited and ready to go. I don't force her into anything, and try to mix play into everything I do with her.

But, y'all can't see that through a computer screen and words. So sorry for bothering you.


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#17 ·
Sorry, but saying good dog and petting is NOT all I do to engage. Praise means fawning over her, trying to get her interested in her toys and tugs (she's not very toy motivated at all), high value treats, etc.

But... Whatever. Was trying to share something I was doing that I learned ON HERE, that so far is working wonderfully for what I was wanting to achieve. My pup is not abused, her life, and yes, "training" is fun and joyful, not a monotonous death toll. She WANTS to train. I bring out my fanny pack and she gets so excited and ready to go. I don't force her into anything, and try to mix play into everything I do with her.

But, y'all can't see that through a computer screen and words. So sorry for bothering you.


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No one is saying you're doing any of those things.

We're saying we think there are better ways to achieve what you'd like that is not so demotivating.
 
#18 ·
Perhaps there are. But if what I'm doing is working really well for me and my pup, why do I need to suddenly change everything?

The two hours spent on the leash yesterday and reinforcing "come" on occasion with the leash as a physical reminder with lots of praise has done exactly what I wanted.

I'm not expecting perfection, but at the same time, I'm not going to just shrug and say "she's just a puppy", and let it all slide.

Come is extremely important. I live in a rural area, but next to a busy highway. I do keep her on a leash if we go outside not in the backyard, but if she got loose, I need to have a solid recall for her safety.

I dunno. I'm sorry for getting defensive. I know that there might be "better" ways, but if my pup is achieving what I want at a pace that suits me and my goals for her, and she is happy and loving it in the end (a couple hours a day on a leash to remind her of leash manners and to respond to "come" won't kill her spirit), why do I need to change what I'm doing just bc someone on the internet thinks there's a better way?


It was a mistake to share since obviously puppy training methods can be controversial. I apologize. Thank you all for your input, I do appreciate it, even if I choose to not follow all of it. :)


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#23 ·
Perhaps there are. But if what I'm doing is working really well for me and my pup, why do I need to suddenly change everything?
Working really well eh? Wait a couple of months and you'll see. Whenever I hear someone says their pup knows 10+ commands I already know they'll be complaining about a "teenage" phase a couple months down the road.

It's easy to bribe a 5 year old child with treats. Not so easy to bribe an 18 year old with treats. If you didn't get so defensive, you'd realize people are just warning you of what can and probably will happen with your pup. Most people are also speaking from experiences they've had but what do we know? It seems like you've got it all figured out.
 
#21 · (Edited)
So what was the point of posting? Just to get a bunch of pats on the back and keep goings?

Most times when people post about training...its to get more information, and to get a different opinion with what can be changed to do better...you posted your method, and people objectively discussed it. Not one person thought what you were doing was punishment, yet you kept on focusing on the fact that being on leash was a punishment to your dog.

Your 14 week old knows 16 commands? I'd love to see that. I think what people are trying to say is that you need to slow down. You might have a recall right now, but in a few months your dog will be braver, more grown up, and that recall WILL disappear. When you see progress, you might not realize it, and the one time your dog fails because you've pushed it too far too fast, it won't end well (you keep emphasizing how dangerous your area is).

To most of us, proofing is when there are distractions, other things going on, a more show type atmosphere. We've all gone through 14 week old puppies, and the way you're talking about yours is just unbelievable to anyone that's been through a bunch of puppies. I see a lot of people trying to get you to slow down and not get ahead of yourself because they understand the growth of a puppy and know that the things you're seeing aren't going to last long. There are probably other things, like focus work and engagement that will help you build a better foundation for when your dog will be old and mature enough to be reliable with many of these commands.

I don't doubt your dog loves training. I could care less how "happy" she seems when she's doing the work. Trust me, I've seen people do WAY worse to their dogs than putting them on leash and tethering them to themselves.
 
#22 ·
OP, it wasn't a mistake to share. Where you made the mistake was when you let a bunch of random strangers upset you :) I'm sure lots of people are following your stories with your pup, and enjoy your posts. Like martemchik just said, we post to get opinions - and if they were all identical then we'd never learn anything, lol.
 
#24 ·
Thanks blanketback.

My pup is everything to me, and so I do get a little too upset/defensive when people seem to think in being abusive and neglectful, when all they are going off are words... That I do admit, weren't the best in the OP since I changed my expectations after I wrote it based on my pup. Always learning you know.

Yes, she understands 16-17 commands. Are they fully proofed and 100% perfect in every situation? No. But we're working up to that slowly but surely and she does understand them. I'll see about getting a better video of them. It's not a lie or exaggeration.

As for the teenage years, yes, I know they bring disobedience. Doesnt mean I'll roll over and accept it. No, I'll be consistent and work with her accordingly, continuing to encourage engagement and focus like I am now.

And yes, she will eventually be trained as an assistance dog for when I'm in a major depressive episode, but that's not NOW other than the simple commands that will later be back chained into tasks. She is being socialized, seeing new things and new people, learning how to interact properly and what is not ok, and having fun with new tricks that she can show off and get lots of praise for doing. Once she's passed her CGC and TDI testing at a year+, then will I focus on teaching her the tasks. Until then, we're learning fun tricks and exploring new things and encouraging manners in all situations.


I was sharing, not looking for pats on the back, but considering the advice of keeping a puppy tethered to you and 100% in your line of sight unless in their crate was something I saw again and again highly encouraged on this forum, I wasn't necessarily expecting people to tell me I'm punishing my puppy and that I'm zapping the fun out of her life bc she likes to learn and explore, and that has resulted in 16-17 commands.


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#26 ·
The thing is, like boomer noted - is it does not sound like you are not building the proper foundations to be able to have a successful, happy relationship with your dog. You are going to run into a lot of road bumps with your methods and you are going to have a much harder time getting into service work because of this.

When you rush things, you are making compromises. You are taking some gain now for some loss in 6 months.

I've personally never had a dog go through an "adolescent" phase and be a "teenager". I'm sure some, even raised properly, may... but it's been my experience that if you lay the correct foundations and keep your criteria, the dog has no reason to start being a "teenager".

When she's 2 years old, and you start understanding dogs a little better, you will understand what we are saying. I know I did. And because of things that I did when my dog was young, there are a lot of things that he will never be able to do, now.
 
#27 ·
So what are these "correct foundations" that y'all seem to think I'm not doing? I'm engaging with my pup. I'm playing with her whenever I have free time between work and school. I'm rewarding focus and any desire to interact with me, in any way. I'm working on bite inhibition and she's doing great. Apart from "come" and manners on leash and off, her tricks/commands are for fun, NOT a job or work. Why is that horrible for her?


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#28 ·
I don't see where you get so hung up on abused...no one is saying your dog is abused.

I think the point people are making is that the foundation you're starting with isn't the best. There are other things you should/could be doing that will prepare both you and your dog for a more successful relationship in the future. Its not that your way won't work, but other's have experience that tells them another way is better.

I was like you with my first dog...super serious, trying to teach him every single command I can think of as fast as possible. Then they get older, and you realize that you really missed out on some fun times where the dog doesn't necessarily NEED to know all those commands. When they get older, those commands are much easier to teach and the relationship is the part most people work on now. I wish I had some of those first few months back so that I could've really enjoyed my dog a little more and worked more on focus exercises rather than sits and downs.

You're running the risk of making obedience boring and a chore for your dog. If you put too much on them from a young age they start to think everything is just a command. They start to think that every time you interact with them you're going to want them to do something. There's nothing wrong with that, but the fact that you've realized you need to back track with some of your training when your pup is only 14 weeks old, says a lot about how far you've gone that you've already realized you might've made mistakes.

That's the problem with this age...although they learn quick, they also learn the wrong things quick. Back tracking is very difficult as this is the foundation you're laying for your dog. Its tough to correct at this age, and its very easy to mess something up and cause an issue later on.

Here's an example...you teach your dog to sit. It starts taking a few seconds, then a few more seconds, then it sits slower and slower. You treat...because you have to treat a young dog for everything they do. So now the dog is getting rewarded no matter how fast or slow it sits. So it learns a bad behavior. You can't correct this behavior, and no matter how fast you move the treat, the dog doesn't sit any faster. If the dog was older, more understanding of the relationship you have, you might be able to correct this behavior. But at 14 weeks...you can't. (This is just an example)
 
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