15 month old potty training...
Hype is not a rescue. We raised her from birth, with her littermates and mom.. Was a heck of a time to crate train. Once in a while she still poops in her kennel but for the most part she's doing going.
High energy dog, doesn't settle in the house much, whines at everything (the cat.. this dog will NEVER be normal around cats or ignore them. Too much of an impulse not to flip out when she sees our cat..) Barks in her kennel in the morning a few times, high pitch demanding puppy bark. Never gets let out when she does that until a while after. Good on obedience but doesn't focus much to what's actually happening. Thinks everything is a big game, and is constantly offering behaviors (which I don't put down because atleast she's doing something..) Very excited and clumsy pup..
Submissive towards my boyfriend. No, he's never hit her but has grabbed her collar and put her in her crate and that's IT. I didn't know I was signing up for such a sensitive dog? Out of her lines, (Tiekerhook x Wartenberg) I would expect a stronger dog. The other day I told her kennel in a stern voice, she didn't do it the first time. Wouldn't do it the next so I dragged her in by the collar. This morning when she got out of her kennel, I told her down (runs frantically around the house when she gets let out in the morning..) stay. Down, stay. She got up and there was a pee spot. Just a few minutes ago I took her ball from her and was talking in a playful voice, we were getting ready to chase the ball and she just stood here and peed on the carpet. Pees and walks.
This is not a case of me not watching my dog. She is always with me and yes, sometimes still gets tethered. It doesn't make a difference. She doesn't squat to pee or anything. She'll just stand there and pee. :confused:
I know her lines are 'slow to mature'. I get it. But this is ridiculous. At this age, I had my other female out of her kennel at night and was able to leave her in the house sometimes. With Hype? I wouldn't even question it. This dog will destroy out of boredom and not being told 'no'. That's fine, but it would be nice to have her out at night and make her feel like she's apart of the family more than being in the room across from us with her nightlight and radio on.. even if you throw her a bone, no, she doesn't want to be in there alone (who can blame?)
She has no interest in picking up training to learn to tell us when she has to go. For example: We will potty the dogs, bring them back in. 20 minutes later, she'll pee.. again. Doesn't make a difference to her if she's in front of you or not. Tried bells. Tried food motivation. Tried clicker. Tried everything.
What else can I do? And on top of that, how can I deal with my dog so she's not submissive like this towards me? I certainly haven't treated her bad anytime in her life and have done all I know how to in building her confidence up. Which brings me to my last point - if her peeing with me is excitement or submission? She can't help it. It makes me sad to see that lack of confidence in my dog and makes me wonder what I did wrong..
She's still intact if it makes any difference and I had planned to keep her that way until she hits 3-4 years.
Far from an expert but I've done a decent job of housetraining pups over the years.
Since you bred her, was her mother like this? How are the other pups? That may help determine how much might be temperament-related.
Also. I'd have a vet exam done to make sure there are no problems.
But it sounds like she is scared, for whatever reason. I'd consult with a trainer as well to work on her confidence issues.
In the meantime maybe try crating her near the door and not asking anything of her until she has gone out. I definitely wouldn't drag her to the crate or yell at her until you know what's really going on. Only going to make it worse, IMHO.
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Would it be safe to relate this kind of behavor to her high strung temperament? We had her mom for 9 weeks (was 'fostering' the female for a sport breeder) Roxy wasn't easily confined. Would break out of her kennel when we needed to wean her off the pups. And she would mess in her room a lot but we just thought this was because she was nursing, new mom.. didn't know if she was raised in the house or the kennel. Drank stupid amounts of water..
Her mom wasn't afraid, scared or sketchy of anything. The only time she acted up was when we put her outside in a kennel away from her pups one day, she tried to climb the kennel. I was told that her sire failed his courage test in schutzhund, but then again he was titled. A pup related to Max v. Tiekerhook and Aron v. Poppitz.. I wouldn't expect this temperament. At all.
I come from working with a trainer, thats where we raised the pups.
If the pup is too fixed on whatever else is happening and not me, in that case, my cat who had been missing for 3 weeks was outside and to prevent her from running off Hype needed to go away NOW. Tough cookies for any dog that doesn't want to go in the kennel. They will be pushed in. Thankfully I don't have to do that with Hype - by dragging I think that gives the impression of the dog fighting me. Nope. She just was guided - I should have said - by the collar and went in there just fine.
Why do you say to crate her near the door? What difference or impact would this have? Normally, yes, I just let her run to the door and don't ask for 'manners' I think it's great that people will do this with their dogs, however, I don't feel the need to micromanage my pup like that unless I have to (i.e leash and collar on before potty, when we lived in an apartment.) Now it's just down in kennel, open kennel, run around, say hi to mom and run to the door and sit down until I'm leashed then puppy time outside!
She is obviously frightened and as you said, very sensitive. When you speak harshly to her and grab her collar that increases her fear of you. So she pees and you get mad, and the cycle continues. For this type of dog, I would only do positive training and I would be very careful of my tone of voice and not raise it at all - I would not grab her. I think clicker training would work very well with her as that can be very effective with frightened animals. There are some threads on that. Also the book Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas - she has excellent advice and insight. For the potty training, I would start all over as if she were a pup.
Sounds like you're using the crate as punishment, which is a recipe for bad results. Start over...
I only meant crate near door to get her outside faster, thus less time to nervous pee in your house. Not fixing the problem but just damage control WHILE you are working on the problem.
Use the tastiest treats available and throw those in to encourage her to go in on her own. My 5mo will literally bounce across the house to his crate when I say kennel and pull out a salmon stick. Throw a bunch in so she can hunt for them for a bit so she will associate something fun/yummy in her crate. I suspect it will take a lot of time and patience though at her age.
I know my biggest concern with mine was him being confident. And gladly he has plenty of nerve. I would find a trainer that can help you build her confidence. My opinion is that the housetraining problem is a symptom of the weak nerve and may correct itself if you address the other. It may be that more "fun" games/play and less strict obedience would help her...
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I run into a few problems with all this advice:
First of all, no, her kennel is never used as punishment. When she goes to her kennel in the middle of the day it's either to eat or because I'd like a 'dog break' while I mop or something.
Now if she doesn't goto her kennel the first time I say it, yes, regardless of the situation - she will be escorted to her kennel. I'm not mean about it, I'm not yelling at her and I'm not mad at her but SIT MEANS SIT. I say go, you go. There has to be threat behind what I say to her in certain situations to make her believe I'm serious. Not just hey puppy! kennel! kennel! If I tried that the first time and you don't go because you're too busy looking at the cat - well, her loss. If I say 'crunchies' she runs to her kennel and waits. Heck, if I bring out a treat at any time during the day she runs to her kennel and waits for it in there. That being said, she has good association with her kennel being a good place and not a bad place.. I may try to move her kennel to our bedroom. This stops her high pitched demanding puppy bark in the morning of "I'M HERE, WAKE UP AND TEND TO ME. I'M BORED." A bark collar for this seems useless, it stops the problem but doesn't teach her anything. Possibility that she's lonely in there all by herself while the other dog is in the room with us. I really want her to be able to sleep outside of her kennel sometimes. She has zero respect for your personal space and really isn't aware of her size. This morning for example, the bedroom door was open, cat was sleeping with me and the boyfriend let her out to potty: the little beast comes running in my room jumping all over me nailing me in the head a million times. Not acceptable. But how can I train 'excitement' out of her like that?! To me, that's naturally how she is.
She used to be leash reactive and we successfully worked that out of her being confidant that the other dog wouldn't react, and using her prong collar. Done deal, the dog can take a correction.
When I personally think of a submissive dog, I think of one that pees over everything when you touch it or address it at all. Sometimes handlers are too much for their dogs. Hype isn't like this. It's the odd thing here and there, my dog isn't afraid of me on a daily basis like this. It really confuses me.
On the upside, she LOVES her ball. Ball over treats any day. The dog naturally loves to please you and is better off corrected without a prong collar for obedience training. A clicker can't hurt. I'll pick one up for her, I think we lost ours.. She's a joy to work outside with.
She doesn't take anything seriously, so I have to. And yes, she gets reminded of this or corrected but at 15 months? I'd expect her to get the point of not jumping on the door every time she sees me come home from work or somebody else. I get she's excited. But really? I feel like I've been doing puppy BASICS with her for the longest time and she just needs to grow up a little bit.
I've been doing puppy basics with her potty all the time. It doesn't progress. She will still just stand there and pee like nothing is going on. I feel like she recognizes she isn't supposed to do it inside. I usually just sigh in disapointment or ignore it all together as not to make a big deal out of it then take her outside. Back to the bells on the door I guess for this one..
I think you need to trained her. You should spend time for her. I think she frightened and sensitive. So you need to handle her carefully. Don't give punishment.It could be harmful for her.
Kaity, your post of yesterday, really explains more her behavior. I have got a better picture now. Yes, since she is treat motivated, clicker training would probably be very successful. And I think you can use it for the potty issue. She really seems from what you said, not so much scared as excited and energetic. I think the potty training problem is that she is not the type of dog to go to the door when she needs to potty or when she is outside to stop her play to piddle. She holds it because she has better things to do, she thinks she can wait - and then can't wait no longer - so as you have mentioned - out it comes. I suggest you potty her on a schedule - I do the same and always have and I also use a word. I think that is where you could use the clicker and teach her the word - so she knows what is expected. Also make sure she has enough time to potty and go out there with her.
Kaity - I currently have a high drive, handler sensitive working dog. He'll be two in December. You HAVE to think out of the box. I've had many dogs - different breeds. He is by far the most difficult to train.
I never correct. I never holler. I never threaten him. I build his confidence. I build drive. I set him up to succeed. When we start something new, I do every thing in baby steps. Let each step soak in before I begin the next one.
His kennel is by the door. We play kennel games. When I want him to go to his kennel, I walk to his kennel and have a treat in my hand. I give the command to kennel...and wait. He used to race around the house (including over the furniture) The moment he goes into his kennel, I repeat "kennel" and I reward. I do not treat outside the kennel. I do not grab him. I do not nag him.
His kennel is by the door because I want him to go straight outside. Too many distractions between kennel and door if I place it anywhere else. And he can be distracted by the dust floating in a sun beam.
Now at 21 months - when I get out a treat he runs to his kennel and waits. When I say 'Kennel' he runs to his kennel and waits. When he comes into the house he goes straight to his kennel and waits. When it's time to go to bed he goes straight to his kennel and waits. He isn't waiting because he is a good boy, he is waiting because he wants a treat. He knows this behavior will get him one. That is the way his brain works.
In the morning, I don't speak to him, I dont' look at him, I don't acknowledge him. I open his kennel, take him by his collar and put him outside. Every single morning. Now, in the morning, I open his kennel and he goes straight to the door and waits for me to open it.
If you want her attention, whisper. Don't raise your voice. Whisper. Raising your voice raises her excitment level.
With a handler sensitive dog you need to be clear on what it is you want. You need to be consistant. You need to work on building confidence. Put her out in the morning the same time every time (give or take an hour). If she starts barking (and you are following the schedule) whisper "quiet". She's going to go "Uh?" and you reward because she stopped barking. If you raise your voice it'll only raise her excitement level.
BTW - this dog of mine, ROCKS. He is a working fool. Not because I'm a great trainer, I'm seriously not. But because I think outside of the box.
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