Proper Correction Methods

[sheep]

Hi guys, I've been reading many threads and websites/blog, but I still can't find a definite method that works best, so I wonder if you guys can share your opinions about this?

How do you guys correct dogs for improper behaviour?

Personally, I use "NO", "HEY", "SHH" or "ACK ACK" for verbal correction. I also use "OUT" to tell my dog to leave somewhere or some furniture. My dog does stop when he hears that, but not always.

He's currently 6 months old, and going through the typical crazy puppy time. Problem is, he would listen most of the time, but there are times that he would just insist, with biting involved. He would also play bite roughly, or he would bite us when we try to stop him from going after something.

What we've tried (in the following order):
- redirect and praise with chew bones and toys;
- body block and redirecting through pulling him away by the collar slowly - when it doesn't work he would start biting us;
- hitting - it does not work at all, he just won't care as if it's just play for him;
- grabbing by the scurf and holding down/still, only releasing when he's calm - he just moves and bites and growls 'till he gets tired, it seems to be more useful to make him tired than to pass the "NO is NO" message;
- time-out or restraint by short leash - to substitute the physical confrontation, it seemed to work a few times I've tried, the problem is we can't do that in the middle of the night coz of the barking;
- pull the flat collar a bit higher to choke him a bit - this seems to work, he would gulp and sometimes cough (like when he does when he pulls the leash during walks) and stop almost immediately.

So far, the last method seems to be the most efficient when he really doesn't listen and respect the boundaries at all. He's a really confident puppy, and no matter how intimidating we try to act, when he gets really rebellious he would just not care at all, and even perceive it as a kind of play/fight often. Maybe we need to be more rough, but honestly we hate being physically rough and we are afraid of hurting him too. All that we want is to be firm with as less confrontation as possible, while teaching him that disrespecting the boundaries won't be accepted.

Maybe all this rebellious behaviour and bites are temporary, but I just can't accept that he won't stop it when we really need him to stop and can't just ignore. There are times in which he would go after something we can't allow him to, and there are also times in which he suddenly wakes up in the middle of the night to play bite us.

But on the other hand, although the collar choke method with the flat collar seemed to work, we are afraid that it might hurt him too.

So do you guys have any good idea on how to make a (really confident) dog know that NO means NO?
My partner is a very gentle person, he's not assertive enough to act like a firm leader, and while our puppy might not listen to us all the time, he does listen to me better since I'm firmer (consistent with rules and less afraid). He is often baby talking him and even reward him in the wrong moments accidentally, and he thinks that the puppy is a fragile fluffy fellow.
I believe that sometimes, dogs do need correction to learn to respect certain boundaries, but I wish if there are any good correction methods that are as less confrontational as possible, with only being firm, calm and assertive as the requirements.

[Anastasia]

Have you ever had him in an obedience class, it sounds like you, your partner and your pup would benefit greatly. It will get both you and your partner on the same page so to speak and the trainer can help with specific problem areas.

I am sure someone with more knowledge than myself will post and can give you better information than I can.

[sheep]

Originally Posted by Anastasia

Have you ever had him in an obedience class, it sounds like you, your partner and your pup would benefit greatly. It will get both you and your partner on the same page so to speak and the trainer can help with specific problem areas.

I am sure someone with more knowledge than myself will post and can give you better information than I can.

I wish that we could take him to one, but it's a bit expensive for our budget. Although I do basic obedience training such as SIT, DOWN, WAIT, and so on, using only positive reinforcement. I don't really correct my puppy during training, and if he doesn't listen (when there are no valuable stuffs involved) then I'd just hold him by his collar to avoid going away, try to have his attention back and command him again 'till he listens.

[TechieDog]

You really need to learn from a competent trainer. Find a group obedience class, they tend to be more reasonably priced. But at least crate him at night so he doesn't start that play biting when you want to sleep. Be firm with him, stop letting him dictate what goes on so that he will respect you and get him plenty of exercise. I take it you are not using a prong collar?
You need to get control of this now or you will have a much bigger problem as he gets older.

[sheep]

Originally Posted by TechieDog

You really need to learn from a competent trainer. Find a group obedience class, they tend to be more reasonably priced. But at least crate him at night so he doesn't start that play biting when you want to sleep. Be firm with him, stop letting him dictate what goes on so that he will respect you and get him plenty of exercise. I take it you are not using a prong collar?
You need to get control of this now or you will have a much bigger problem as he gets older.

I'm currently using the flat collar only, as I'm not familiar with using training collars.

That is my exact worry, that if he doesn't respect the rules now, then it will lead to bigger issues later due to lack of capacity to control him.
I'm not afraid of being firm and assertive if that's what it takes, although I want to learn as much as possible about different possible methods that are safe for our puppy (and safe for my partner to implement, since he's less assertive and less intuitive with dogs) and requires minimal physical confrontation and mostly calm assertive attitude.

[wildo]

Originally Posted by sheep

I'm not afraid of being firm and assertive if that's what it takes, although I want to learn as much as possible about different possible methods that are safe for our puppy (and safe for my partner to implement, since he's less assertive and less intuitive with dogs) and requires minimal physical confrontation and mostly calm assertive attitude.

I respect your decision to try to stick with positive reinforcement (+R) training techniques and work to avoid positive punishment (+P) training techniques. Your dog will love you for that. I'd recommend you pick up Shaping Success to see how a top notch trainer worked through serious issues using +R techniques while avoiding +P. The book is written from a perspective of agility, but it would still be very useful to someone who has no interest in agility. I also think that her other book, Ruff Love, is a great companion to Shaping Success- reading both will solidify the picture for you. Finally, after reading Ruff Love, you may be thinking to yourself- "wow, that's kinda extreme" (I certainly thought that). But I'd recommend reading this blog post to help your understanding of the intent.

[EDIT]- by the way "proper correction method" is totally subjective! The whole "positive only training" vs "correction-based training" is regularly debated on this forum. There are people on both sides of the fence, as well as people who sit near the middle. Nobody will be able to tell you "this method is absolutely the best" with any kind of authority because that is a subjective thing to say. It's totally your decision and you will just have to take the info provided, study it, and make your own choice.

[sheep]

Originally Posted by wildo

I respect your decision to try to stick with positive reinforcement (+R) training techniques and work to avoid positive punishment (+P) training techniques. Your dog will love you for that. I'd recommend you pick up Shaping Success to see how a top notch trainer worked through serious issues using +R techniques while avoiding +P. The book is written from a perspective of agility, but it would still be very useful to someone who has no interest in agility. I also think that her other book, Ruff Love, is a great companion to Shaping Success- reading both will solidify the picture for you. Finally, after reading Ruff Love, you may be thinking to yourself- "wow, that's kinda extreme" (I certainly thought that). But I'd recommend reading this blog post to help your understanding of the intent.

[EDIT]- by the way "proper correction method" is totally subjective! The whole "positive only training" vs "correction-based training" is regularly debated on this forum. There are people on both sides of the fence, as well as people who sit near the middle. Nobody will be able to tell you "this method is absolutely the best" with any kind of authority because that is a subjective thing to say. It's totally your decision and you will just have to take the info provided, study it, and make your own choice.

Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard about Ruff Love before, although I'm not familiar with its philosophy yet. I've found a pdf document somewhere that explains the 4 phases of the program, in which a dog's freedom is strictly restricted at first and then has almost total freedom when he graduates from the program. This idea seems interesting, as it makes a dog learn to respect the owner so that he could gain more privileges gradually.

About the topic of this thread, I didn't want to start a debate about different methods, but just wanted more ideas for different methods, since the methods I've used are not effective/applicable in our case. Flat collar choke seems effective and almost non confrontal, but I'm worried if it can be dangerous, so if there are other methods it could be worth a try.

I just wanted to know what methods you guys usually use for correction, so that I can get a few new ideas and see if any can adapt to my case.

[jetscarbie]

Sounds like you have a very energetic dog. There is a lot of work you have to do when you have one like that.

He would probably really benefit with some training or even some of those fun classes like agility.

How much do you exercise him? Whatever the amount, sounds like you need to add some more time to that. Probably a combination of walking, running, hiking, throwing balls, etc....Sounds like your dog has a lot of pent up energy. Maybe find a lake and see if he likes to swim.

I have found in my own personal experience....when they are being buttheads and not listening, biting, barking, whatever....I take them for a VERY long walk, run, hike. It always helps.

As for correction collars or collars in general, mine usually don't wear any inside the house. On walks, my male wears a pinch collar (for the sake of chipmunks and deer...and myself)

[catz]

Corrections are different for each dog. Some need a firmer correction then others. For biting I used the "carry at toy at all times and stuff it into their mouth" method for Rio. She was all teeth from 12 weeks till about 7 months old and it was frustratiing but that method does work.
You dont need to get to the stage where hitting or intimidating is an option, this only damages your relationship and ruins the trust your pup has in you. When ever you feel yourself getting angry just remind yourself that your dog is a BABY and has no idea that this behaviour is wrong. You wouldn't try intimidate a toddler so dont do it with a pup.
It sounds like you have a very high energy pup and need to channel that energy into something productive. Up the exercise and get some mind games going (find it, tricks, etc.), you want your pup to be physically and metally worn out by bed time. Its a lot of work but thats what your kid needs.
I would get into training classes as well, shop around for a class that you can afford. You need the help of a trainer in this situation. You can only do so much with limited knowlage and it sounds like your partner needs to learn how to handle a high energy breed. I know money is tight atm but I would rather spend some money on classes now then shell out big bucks for a behaviourist when things get out of hand.
As for prong collars I personally wouldn't feel comfortable putting one on a 6 month old (Rio started wearing hers at 1 year) but that are the kind of things a trainer can advise you on.

Good luck! It sounds like you have a great puppy who just needs a little work and more stimulation.

[k9pack]

It is really about how you are connecting with your dog which matters. Look beyond devices and appearances and think influence via the owner's personality type and you will start to get your answers. Many trainers give conditioning a green light without understanding the type of influence which is happening via the roles.