Training with treats -- when to stop?

[AthenaClimbs]

Hi there,
My girl is 4.5 months. We have primarily been training her to do everything with treat encouragement (with occasional clicker). When she tugs on the leash or I notice her stray a bit, I entice her back with a treat, make her heel for a bit, then reward in a bit. It seems to be working great.
My concern is 1) I want her to obey commands eventually without a treat. I want it to become innate and not have her do it because she knows eventually she'll get a reward. Right now that's the only reason she's doing it. and 2) at what age do you usually stop giving treats and they obey on command.

Also, when you train with treats..do you let her see you have the treats or do you hide them behind your back, then reward. I'm sure it's the latter but I want to be sure. Thanks

[Emoore]

You're not going to get a "heel" from a 4.5 month old puppy without treats unless you're in a distraction-free environment. At this stage, loose-leash walking is a good goal.

Phase out the treats slowly. When you're working on commands with her, instead of having the treats in your hand, start leaving them in your pocket where she can't see them. Once she's done the command, give her the treat from your pocket. From there you can phase out the treat and reward with petting, praise, and scratches. This will probably take a few months. Then she'll hit the teenager stage and start ignoring you again, and you'll have to pull the treats back out. Then, about the time she's 18 months old you'll have a dog that reliably obeys with no treats.

My dogs are 10 months and 9 years old. I still treat intermittently. Why not? I wouldn't go to work if they didn't pay me. When I call my dogs, I still treat them for coming roughly 80% of the time because it's really important to me that they come when I call. You will still have to reinforce the commands-- through reward and correction-- throughout her life. You're never "done" with training.

[Karla]

It sounds like you're off to a good start with your training!

I primarily train with a clicker also. My dog is 4 years old and I still use treats. I will for the rest of his life. That's his reward for working. When you use treats, you want to train a new behavior with a high rate of reinforcement and then go to a variable rate of reinforcement. This is what keeps him working..........it just might pay off.

Think of it like a slot machine. Why do people keep putting coins in the machine? Because it might pay off. Dogs are likely to repeat behaviors that have been reinforced.

People work because they know they will get a paycheck. You might only get paid every 2 weeks, but you go to work every day because you know the payoff is coming. If they quit paying you, how willing would you be to work?

I have a treat pouch with hinges to keep it open and it has a belt to keep it on my waist. I just keep the pouch on my back side so it doesn't become a visual cue.

I have a novice obedience title and a rally excellent title and you can't take treats in the ring. He works because he knows he'll eventually get paid. When I practice, I'll run him through his whole routine and pay him when we're done. He listens to commands because they have a strong reinforcement history. He doesn't always get food as a reward; sometimes it's verbal praise or the opportunity to play or go for a walk.......things that he likes. It's the Premack Principle......."Do what I want to get what you want".

If you are showing the treat to get a behavior, that is a lure (bribe). You can use a lure to get a behavior, but you want to fade it out fast so it doesn't become a cue. You want your dog to do the behavior and then get the reward. The clicker is a bridge between the behavior and the reward. The clicker marks the desired behavior and the dog knows exactly what it was doing when you clicked. Your pup will try to repeat the behavior to earn a reward.

"Clicker Training for Obedience" by Morgan Spector is a good book to read.

I hope this explanation helps. Good luck with your puppy!

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by AthenaClimbs

My concern is 1) I want her to obey commands eventually without a treat. I want it to become innate and not have her do it because she knows eventually she'll get a reward. Right now that's the only reason she's doing it.

That's because you've just started training with with her. She's still very young. When you're training a new behavior (and everything is new for a puppy this age!), the rate of reinforcement should be very high. Letting the dog see the treat first is basically using it as a lure - I do that only as long as I absolutely have to for each behavior I'm training, and then I reward afterwards without having the treat in my hand. Any time I change the picture for any behavior by adding distance, duration, or distraction, or train in a different environment, I may need to lure a time or two. A perfect sit with a verbal cue at home in my kitchen is NOT the same as a perfect sit on cue at the vet's office or in puppy class or anywhere else outdoors and you should not expect the same level of compliance until that command is fully generalized to all situations. Will she sit immediately when you're across the room from her? With her either in front of you toe to toe OR at your side in heel position? How about when you're sitting on the floor, or standing on a chair, or laying in bed......? Until then, she doesn't REALLY know the sit command, even if it seems like she does - dogs learn in very specific contexts. I always pair enthusiastic praise with the food, so that when I go to a random reinforcement schedule and eventually phase out treats, I continue the praise.

2) at what age do you usually stop giving treats and they obey on command.

Also, when you train with treats..do you let her see you have the treats or do you hide them behind your back, then reward. I'm sure it's the latter but I want to be sure. Thanks

There is no one magic age, it totally depends on the dog and how well they know the commands. A skilled trainer is going to get there faster than someone who has never trained a dog before. And as I said in question 1, before you just stop all food rewards you would reward randomly - think slot machine. Not always knowing what the reward will be or when it will come can actually strengthen the behavior, but you must make sure that she understands what you expect from her before you lower the rate of reinforcement. Don't be in a big hurry to stop rewarding her for good behavior.

And the rate of reinforcement should be tied to how well established the behavior is and how difficult. Something she's been doing well for a long time might warrant a simple "good girl!", but with something more challenging or that you're just starting to teach her (heel is a pretty challenging behavior), you might still be rewarding every repetition. So even long after I had stopped rewarding Dena for a sit, I was still using tons of treats in agility class, I use treats on training walks with Keefer to reinforce walking nicely at my side without pulling, and for giving me eye contact because he's still a little reactive to other dogs when he's on leash, and I use lots of treats with Halo in flyball class. Keefer is 6 years old and Halo will be 3 in a couple of weeks, and I don't have treats on me at all times like I did when they were puppies, but when they're especially good, such as maintaining a down stay while someone is at the door, I'll still sometimes release, tell them how wonderful they were and then we run to the cabinet for a treat. Good dogs get treats, yay!

You can also use "real life" rewards rather than just food. My dogs have to sit and make eye contact before I release them to eat after I've put their bowls on the floor, or before I throw a ball for them or let them outside or inside. The reward is getting something of value to them, which does not always have to be a treat, but by using food rewards to train new behaviors (which are inherently valuable, food is considered a "primary reinforcer" because all dogs need to eat, they don't need to be taught the value of food) you can get in a lot of repetitions in a short period of time.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Karla, you type faster than I do.

[Karla]

Debbie, the same thing happened to me with Emoore's post.

At least we are all on the same page with our responses.

[Stella's Mom]

I treat my 9 month old a lot during walks to reinforce good behavior as we are going past ducks, squirrels, cats, people, other dogs.

We either walk in a heel to get past these distractions or I will hold a stick in my hand to play with her while we walk past other dogs and what not.

We started Shutzhund and I was told 'treating" is going to be a big part of the beginning of training and a big pile of treats are used as a reward at the end of the scent track and more treats when we put our dog back in the crate after tracking.

[MaggieRoseLee]

Be a really great idea to start up puppy classes too!

When you use treats to train, first you use them all the time, then you only start RANDOM reinforcing when you are getting the behavior all the time, but even that means tons of treats for quite a while. Or you can also start adding a tug/toy.

Biggest thing with puppies is we want too much too fast for their little puppy brains. And what we SHOULD be working on is their attitude and engagement during training. NOT IF THEY ARE PERFECT with a behavior. It's their love for training and learning from us that we need. The perfection with a behavior will always come if they want to be engaged and learning from us. So using tons of treats/toys/rewards is what builds the bond and engagement.

We get all the end behaviors as a result!