Retrieving without high value treats.

[Anthony8858]

I've been working with my 3.5 month old GSD on retrieving. I 'm at a point where I can throw her tennis ball up to 100' away, and she'll get, and drop it at my feet...AS LONG AS I HAVE HOTDOGS!!

If I attempt to do this without a hotdog or high value treat, it's out of the question. She'll just go get the ball, and play with it.

I don't expect to walk around with hot digs in my pocket.
Any suggestions?

[glinny]

I just read the thread on tennis balls and threw all mine out. I'm sure someone will have great advice for you on retrieving but also check out the tennis ball thread.

[Cassidy's Mom]

She's still very young, so I don't think you need to worry about phasing out rewards just yet. That doesn't mean that you're going to have to wear hot dogs on your person for the rest of her life! Also, you shouldn't throw the ball too far or too many times in a row until she matures some more because repetitive exercise like that can be hard on growing bones and developing joints. I certainly don't coddle my puppies or treat them like delicate little flowers, but when Halo was a puppy we made sure not to launch the ball as much as usual for Keefer because she'd have killed herself trying to keep up with him and we didn't want her to get injured. She could run around on her own all she wanted, and she could stop and rest if she got tired but we couldn't trust her to self regulate when it came to ball play because she's so competitive with Keef.

If retrieving itself is not inherently rewarding enough right now, at some point that ball drive may kick in and then it will be. And when it DOES kick in, bringing back the ball means you throw it again and she gets to chase it again. Not bringing back the ball means game over. No treats needed because continued ball play IS the treat.

I really only needed treats to get my dogs to give up the ball when they brought it back, not to get them to retrieve it in the first place. Right now it sounds like maybe possessing the ball is more fun than retrieving it. What about using a ball on a rope, like an Orbee, where you can tug with it a little before throwing it again? That may help build value in playing WITH you rather than by herself with the ball. What do you do when she doesn't come back? Have you tried throwing it not very far and then running away from her as soon as she gets it?

[onyx'girl]

Two ball is fun, the dog knows when they give up the one they have, you will throw another.
I agree, a ball on a string to interact with you tends to have much higher value than one they have to only fetch! They will bring it in faster because they can tug with you after you've thrown it.

BUT during teething(starts at about 4 mos, ends at 7), tug has to be put on hold so you don't ruin the incoming adult alignment.

[Anthony8858]

That's exactly what I did.
I attached a tennis ball to a 50' rope, and threw the ball. As soon as she touched the ball, I issues her recall, and reminded her that I had a treat for her.
In the beginning, I had to "reel her in", then she picked up on it.

And yes, I'm aware of the damage for over - running on her developing bones. I usually train her in my hallway, which is about 30' long at most.

I was only illustrating that she could retrieve at longer distances.

[jocoyn]

Two ball game.
Google "two squeakies"
Perfect for a long hallway
Very motivational

I bought some great squeaky balls at Petsmart for $1.99 that look like tiny orange basketballs. Obvoiusly they are a short term toy because of their size but ok for small pup.

I don't think I could throw 100 feet but I throw in weeds and bushes to develop existing hunt drive and have had him go several minutes in the backyard to find the ball.

Hallway is carpeted? Yes I worry about overdoing those hips too but sometimes we have to burn off some steam and if obedience and walks and thinking does not do it....

------

Played the two ball game with my GSDs since 1997 when we got Toby, and they have been run till you drop retrievers. The biggest challenge I had with Cyra was she was not a natural retriever and wanted to possess and destroy the ball but the game prevailed.

[Anthony8858]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

Two ball game.
Google "two squeakies"
Perfect for a long hallway
Very motivational

I bought some great squeaky balls at Petsmart for $1.99 that look like tiny orange basketballs. Obvoiusly they are a short term toy because of their size but ok for small pup.

I don't think I could throw 100 feet but I throw in weeds and bushes to develop existing hunt drive and have had him go several minutes in the backyard to find the ball.

Hallway is carpeted? Yes I worry about overdoing those hips too but sometimes we have to burn off some steam and if obedience and walks and thinking does not do it....

------

Played the two ball game with my GSDs since 1997 when we got Toby, and they have been run till you drop retrievers. The biggest challenge I had with Cyra was she was not a natural retriever and wanted to possess and destroy the ball but the game prevailed.

Excellent advice, as always. Thanks.

You just reminded of a question, I've been meaning to ask....

You ask about carpeting...
I have carpeting in my basement, but NOT in my hallway. I have tile flooring.

Here's my concern:

Sometimes, Kira and Coconut go into "zoomie" mode. While this looks like fun, I have a concern about the stability in her footing on the tile floor.
I may be over thinking this, but I have weird thoughts of her slipping in such a way, that she could twist her hips the wrong way.

Is this something to be concerned about?

[PaddyD]

They usually learn how to run on tile floors or avoid them for the zoomies. You can train them not to do zoomies on slippery floors. Abby has taught herself to stay on the carpet for zoomies but not everyone has the right flooring or floor plan for that.

[MaggieRoseLee]

Just wanted to add that it sounds like the training with the hotdogs (positive reinforcement) missed the step that we all forget about, the RANDOM reinforcement.

We all seem to go immediately from 'a treat 100% of the time' to wanting 'NO treats ever' and then wonder why our dogs stop offering the behavior.

Instead, we are supposed to treat 100% of the time, then maybe treat 3/4 of the time, then 1/2 the time, etc. And not on an exact schedule but going RANDOM with way more treats than not and only scaling back as long as they are still doing well.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by Anthony8858

Sometimes, Kira and Coconut go into "zoomie" mode. While this looks like fun, I have a concern about the stability in her footing on the tile floor.
I may be over thinking this, but I have weird thoughts of her slipping in such a way, that she could twist her hips the wrong way.

Is this something to be concerned about?

I would not be playing fetch in the tile hall unless you're talking about just rolling it a few feet, I'd do it in the carpeted basement. I've done some indoor fetch play with puppies (we have hardwood floors in the hall) but because it was a short distance they were not running at full speed so I wasn't worried about them slipping around and being injured.

It's possible that Kira could hurt herself if she's not careful on slippery floors, but she may learn to self regulate and slow down when she doesn't have good footing. Cassidy used to do these zoomie runs from our (carpeted) bedroom, down the (hardwood) hall and into the garage, which was a straight shot from one end of the house to the other. She'd bounce off the garage door in almost a swimmer's turn and run back down the hall into the bedroom again, go around the foot of the bed and up onto it to make her turn and do it all over again, usually 5 or 6 times in a row. It was fun to watch because she'd always slow down when she hit the slippery hall, and then speed up again in the garage and on the carpet. We learned to stand back and get the heck out of the way until she was done, to avoid being taken out, lol!

If Kira is sliding around on the floors and you're concerned about it, you could buy some cheap hall runners.