Dog training the puppy?

Kittilicious · 10-09-2011, 08:42 PM

I really don't know where to put this question.

Should an owner allow some level of .. I don't want to call it aggressiveness.... establishing dominance maybe?

Here's the thing. I've posted about Saki & her not wanting Knuckles near her when she's eating. That is understandable. But now today we took Knuckles with us to visit family because we knew we were going to be gone most of the day and I didn't want him crated that long. Saki stayed home. On the way we realized we forgot to bring some toys with so we stopped and picked up a few. When we got home, I threw the new toys in the toybox and Saki grabbed all three of them. When Knuckles went up to play with her, like he always does (the chew on toys together/play tug-o-war), Saki raised her lip and growled. I yelled her name and took the toys away from her. Then later on when they toys were out again, she did the same thing, only this time she gave him a few little nips (didn't even make him cry, just made him walk away). I did sit down and play with the new toys with both dogs, so it's not like Saki wasn't allowed to play with them at all.

About 5 minutes later Saki grabbed an "old" toy, Knuckles walked up and the tug-o-war game began like nothing ever happened.

Is this something we should just let happen... as long as she is doing it gentle, so to speak? Do you let dogs establish their own "place" between each other? To me it looks like she's just teaching him to back off when she doesn't want him around, not really being aggressive towards him.
She does the similar thing with food... almost like correcting him, not "attacking" him. She sort of reminds me of a mom spanking her toddler

Which also makes me question it all because of his age. He's 7 weeks today. We got him at 5 weeks... and although I know thats too young, I'm glad we got him when we did because the guy had the mom & puppies in a cement floor outside kennel with miminal human contact. At least Knuckles is getting all sorts of human & other dog socialization with us that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise (he met a Great Dane today!!! That was a hoot.). Could this be considered as Saki being a substitute/surrogate mom? Do mother dogs do similar "nipping" to puppies?

These two are driving me nuts. In all the years and all the dogs I've had, I have NEVER had issues like this. But I've never brought home such a young puppy either. I've had a dog give birth, but I don't remember her behavior towards the puppies (I had a newborn baby myself at the time) I've never had to deal with this type of behavior before. I just don't want a major drawing-blood fight when Knuckles gets older and decides to put Saki in HER place, so I want to know what to do now instead of later.

Emoore · 10-09-2011, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittilicious

I really don't know where to put this question.

Should an owner allow some level of .. establishing dominance maybe?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittilicious

Is this something we should just let happen... as long as she is doing it gentle, so to speak?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittilicious

Do you let dogs establish their own "place" between each other?

Yes I do. So long as there's no real fighting or bloodshed, I let them figure out their own pack hierarchy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittilicious

To me it looks like she's just teaching him to back off when she doesn't want him around, not really being aggressive towards him.
She does the similar thing with food... almost like correcting him, not "attacking" him. She sort of reminds me of a mom spanking her toddler

That sounds about right.

I have a nine year old male and a puppy. It's important to me that the younger dog respect the older dog for the rest of his life. Rocky (my older guy) has done a wonderful job of "training" Kopper to be a good dog. I honestly believe puppies are much better when they have an older, wiser dog reinforcing the rules. You and I don't speak dog so well, but the older dog speaks it fluently.

Rocky was patient with Kopper but also always reinforced the rules. Now that Kopper is 10 months, Rocky can stop him from doing something with just a curl of his lip. I only wish Kopper would listen to me half as well as he listens to Rocky!

Kittilicious · 10-10-2011, 07:29 AM

Thanks. Maybe my logic makes sense then. My husband thought I was sort of wacky with the whole idea of letting Saki continue what she was doing.
I was starting to think Saki needed a major training overhaul or something. Maybe she still is my good girl afterall

**Castlemaid** · 10-10-2011, 08:38 AM

Agree with Emoore - A new puppy coming into the household is at the very bottom of the rank structure. Your Golden knows this and is acting accordingly. Knuckles is finding out about rank structure in an established household.
Completly normal and appropriate.

Adult dogs have different tolerance levels for puppies - some are ever so long-suffering with puppy harassement, others less so. Saki was there first, and by virtue of her age and seniority, is the boss. Don't think of 'fairness' in the human view that both dogs should be treated the same and have the same priviledges - that does not work in the dog world. Dogs need clarity and consistency within the pack structure to feel safe and to feel like they belong. Doesn't matter so much to them as in what position in the pack they are, but more that they KNOW their pack position and that it is reinforced by others, like yourself and Saki.

In my house also I brought a young dog in a couple of years ago when I already had an older, dominant female. The young dog deferred to her as appropriate, and I re-enforced her alpha position by feeding her first, giving her attention first, and giving her other priviledges first before the other dog. The most important thing to me in bringing in another dog into the house was that they would get along, and if I had made my older female feel that her alpha position and her seniority was threatenend because of the new-comer, there would have been a lot of problems.

As it is, two years later, they still get along great, the young dog, though dominant with other dogs given half a chance still defers to her. She feels so secure in her top-spot position, that she is very tolerant and accepting of him, something unusual as she tends to be a bully around other dogs. But with the older one feeling secure in her pack position, and the younger one accepting and respecting his seniors, peace and hapiness reigns.

Kittilicious · 10-10-2011, 08:38 AM

The toys became "old" overnight. They are sharing them this morning. *bangs head against the wall*

So here's another question - since Saki is doing the same correcting over the food bowl, should I just let her teach him that it's hers or should I still continue to keep Knuckles away?

**Castlemaid** · 10-10-2011, 08:43 AM

Yes about the food. Saki has earned the right to eat her meals in peace without puppy harassment.

Kittilicious · 10-10-2011, 08:54 AM

I was just a little nervous because when I first came to this forum 2 weeks ago someone made the comment to me about Saki being able to kill Knuckles. Even though I KNOW it could happen (but yet, who looks at a Golden Retriever as a killer?), I was looking at her being so gentle with him during play and sharing her toys (even her favorite ones) that when it came to the lip-lifting, I freak out. I don't want Knuckles hurt, but I don't want Saki feeling like she's been replaced, either. (I think she's more upset with the cat that the cat prefers playing with the puppy!)
Another thing I've noticed with Saki that impresses me is she lets the puppy smell her tail/butt. She has always had this thing with not letting other dogs smell her like that (but she will do it to other dogs), but she just watches the puppy do it.
I have been doing things with Saki first - like treats. Whats funny is when I tell Saki to sit/lay down/turn/whatever, Knuckles looks at her and tries to copy her. I know this is normal, but it's just so comical to me.

I can't believe how stupid I feel asking some of the stuff I've been asking. With all the dogs I've had you would think I'd know all this stuff, but this is like a whole different ballgame with these two.

Emoore · 10-10-2011, 10:29 AM

Sounds like she's accepting him as a younger/junior packmember.

Kittilicious · 10-10-2011, 11:30 AM

I sure hope thats the case!

Witz · 10-10-2011, 11:57 AM

Because my pup has a stupid food drive, we have found that it is easier for my weaker nerve adult GSD mix to eat in peace while the little PIA is in his crate. Since he has been eating all of his meals in his crate since we brought him home, it is the way it has always been. I do have a memory of 3 dogs eating next to each other, all adults and very well behaved.

10-09-2011, 08:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Kittilicious Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,101	Dog training the puppy? I really don't know where to put this question. Should an owner allow some level of .. I don't want to call it aggressiveness.... establishing dominance maybe? Here's the thing. I've posted about Saki & her not wanting Knuckles near her when she's eating. That is understandable. But now today we took Knuckles with us to visit family because we knew we were going to be gone most of the day and I didn't want him crated that long. Saki stayed home. On the way we realized we forgot to bring some toys with so we stopped and picked up a few. When we got home, I threw the new toys in the toybox and Saki grabbed all three of them. When Knuckles went up to play with her, like he always does (the chew on toys together/play tug-o-war), Saki raised her lip and growled. I yelled her name and took the toys away from her. Then later on when they toys were out again, she did the same thing, only this time she gave him a few little nips (didn't even make him cry, just made him walk away). I did sit down and play with the new toys with both dogs, so it's not like Saki wasn't allowed to play with them at all. About 5 minutes later Saki grabbed an "old" toy, Knuckles walked up and the tug-o-war game began like nothing ever happened. Is this something we should just let happen... as long as she is doing it gentle, so to speak? Do you let dogs establish their own "place" between each other? To me it looks like she's just teaching him to back off when she doesn't want him around, not really being aggressive towards him. She does the similar thing with food... almost like correcting him, not "attacking" him. She sort of reminds me of a mom spanking her toddler Which also makes me question it all because of his age. He's 7 weeks today. We got him at 5 weeks... and although I know thats too young, I'm glad we got him when we did because the guy had the mom & puppies in a cement floor outside kennel with miminal human contact. At least Knuckles is getting all sorts of human & other dog socialization with us that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise (he met a Great Dane today!!! That was a hoot.). Could this be considered as Saki being a substitute/surrogate mom? Do mother dogs do similar "nipping" to puppies? These two are driving me nuts. In all the years and all the dogs I've had, I have NEVER had issues like this. But I've never brought home such a young puppy either. I've had a dog give birth, but I don't remember her behavior towards the puppies (I had a newborn baby myself at the time) I've never had to deal with this type of behavior before. I just don't want a major drawing-blood fight when Knuckles gets older and decides to put Saki in HER place, so I want to know what to do now instead of later. __________________ - Berleen - Knuckles - born 8/21/11 - my big knucklehead and can't forget Saki; the Golden Retriever, Born 11/07/07 The felines that rule the house - Oliver, Serena, Sakura & Bastian. https://www.facebook.com/berleen

10-10-2011, 07:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
Kittilicious Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,101	Thanks. Maybe my logic makes sense then. My husband thought I was sort of wacky with the whole idea of letting Saki continue what she was doing. I was starting to think Saki needed a major training overhaul or something. Maybe she still is my good girl afterall __________________ - Berleen - Knuckles - born 8/21/11 - my big knucklehead and can't forget Saki; the Golden Retriever, Born 11/07/07 The felines that rule the house - Oliver, Serena, Sakura & Bastian. https://www.facebook.com/berleen

10-10-2011, 08:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
Castlemaid Moderator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Northern British Columbia Posts: 9,089	Agree with Emoore - A new puppy coming into the household is at the very bottom of the rank structure. Your Golden knows this and is acting accordingly. Knuckles is finding out about rank structure in an established household. Completly normal and appropriate. Adult dogs have different tolerance levels for puppies - some are ever so long-suffering with puppy harassement, others less so. Saki was there first, and by virtue of her age and seniority, is the boss. Don't think of 'fairness' in the human view that both dogs should be treated the same and have the same priviledges - that does not work in the dog world. Dogs need clarity and consistency within the pack structure to feel safe and to feel like they belong. Doesn't matter so much to them as in what position in the pack they are, but more that they KNOW their pack position and that it is reinforced by others, like yourself and Saki. In my house also I brought a young dog in a couple of years ago when I already had an older, dominant female. The young dog deferred to her as appropriate, and I re-enforced her alpha position by feeding her first, giving her attention first, and giving her other priviledges first before the other dog. The most important thing to me in bringing in another dog into the house was that they would get along, and if I had made my older female feel that her alpha position and her seniority was threatenend because of the new-comer, there would have been a lot of problems. As it is, two years later, they still get along great, the young dog, though dominant with other dogs given half a chance still defers to her. She feels so secure in her top-spot position, that she is very tolerant and accepting of him, something unusual as she tends to be a bully around other dogs. But with the older one feeling secure in her pack position, and the younger one accepting and respecting his seniors, peace and hapiness reigns. __________________ Lucia Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD (HOT) Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? Shelter rescue Gryffon Vom Wildhaus BH, OFA Good (HOT) "Bites Through the Sleeve" Cuddlebug, b: Mar 2009

10-10-2011, 08:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
Kittilicious Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,101	The toys became "old" overnight. They are sharing them this morning. bangs head against the wall So here's another question - since Saki is doing the same correcting over the food bowl, should I just let her teach him that it's hers or should I still continue to keep Knuckles away? __________________ - Berleen - Knuckles - born 8/21/11 - my big knucklehead and can't forget Saki; the Golden Retriever, Born 11/07/07 The felines that rule the house - Oliver, Serena, Sakura & Bastian. https://www.facebook.com/berleen

10-10-2011, 08:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
Castlemaid Moderator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Northern British Columbia Posts: 9,089	Yes about the food. Saki has earned the right to eat her meals in peace without puppy harassment. __________________ Lucia Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD (HOT) Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? Shelter rescue Gryffon Vom Wildhaus BH, OFA Good (HOT) "Bites Through the Sleeve" Cuddlebug, b: Mar 2009

10-10-2011, 08:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
Kittilicious Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,101	I was just a little nervous because when I first came to this forum 2 weeks ago someone made the comment to me about Saki being able to kill Knuckles. Even though I KNOW it could happen (but yet, who looks at a Golden Retriever as a killer?), I was looking at her being so gentle with him during play and sharing her toys (even her favorite ones) that when it came to the lip-lifting, I freak out. I don't want Knuckles hurt, but I don't want Saki feeling like she's been replaced, either. (I think she's more upset with the cat that the cat prefers playing with the puppy!) Another thing I've noticed with Saki that impresses me is she lets the puppy smell her tail/butt. She has always had this thing with not letting other dogs smell her like that (but she will do it to other dogs), but she just watches the puppy do it. I have been doing things with Saki first - like treats. Whats funny is when I tell Saki to sit/lay down/turn/whatever, Knuckles looks at her and tries to copy her. I know this is normal, but it's just so comical to me. I can't believe how stupid I feel asking some of the stuff I've been asking. With all the dogs I've had you would think I'd know all this stuff, but this is like a whole different ballgame with these two. __________________ - Berleen - Knuckles - born 8/21/11 - my big knucklehead and can't forget Saki; the Golden Retriever, Born 11/07/07 The felines that rule the house - Oliver, Serena, Sakura & Bastian. https://www.facebook.com/berleen Last edited by Kittilicious; 10-10-2011 at 08:56 AM.

10-10-2011, 10:29 AM	#8 (permalink)
Emoore Crowned Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North DFW, TX Posts: 9,215	Sounds like she's accepting him as a younger/junior packmember. __________________ Rocky vom Backyard- 10 years young Kopper vom Felssclucht Bach - 17 months At the Bridge: Cash van der Animal Shelter 2006-2010

10-10-2011, 11:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kittilicious Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,101	I sure hope thats the case! __________________ - Berleen - Knuckles - born 8/21/11 - my big knucklehead and can't forget Saki; the Golden Retriever, Born 11/07/07 The felines that rule the house - Oliver, Serena, Sakura & Bastian. https://www.facebook.com/berleen

10-10-2011, 11:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
Witz Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Maryland Posts: 125	Because my pup has a stupid food drive, we have found that it is easier for my weaker nerve adult GSD mix to eat in peace while the little PIA is in his crate. Since he has been eating all of his meals in his crate since we brought him home, it is the way it has always been. I do have a memory of 3 dogs eating next to each other, all adults and very well behaved.

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