Advice, please .. last week's (first) training session

[chelle]

Okkay.. this could run long...

Last Monday night Bailey and I went to our first obedience class. It is an open class to all dogs, 8 wks and older.

This goes back to a thread I started: Does anyone really use choke collars anymore? (for pups?)

Ok so we went.

I had told the trainer I wasn't willing to use a choker, so first thing that happened was the trainer fit a prong collar on Bailey.

I have never used a prong collar. I didn't feel comfortable. I've read too much here about how it MUST be fitted properly, not to mention, it must be used properly. How do I use it properly without being taught?

So the class begins and Bailey and I sit to watch.

Mats are arranged in a large square and they begin with heel, (stop), sit. Ok, looks easy enough. We watch awhile and decide to join.

Walking along is no problem... then comes the stop and sit. Now, I have to confess, I have not worked with Bailey to sit *beside* me, facing forward. He "sits" like a champ, but he's always *facing* me. So when we stop and he's supposed to sit, what does he do but sits to my side, but facing me. He just doesn't "get" that he needs to face forward and why would he?

So I'm told (or yelled at, really!) to go again and do a pop as we stop and then praise... so I do it.. and he seems to start to get it. But then once he laid down because I'm getting called out in front of everyone for 4 or 5 minutes and I'm yelled at again to not allow that, to start walking and do it over. Well by now Bailey isn't too keen on even walking with me, so I'm told to pop and drag him forward. I am now hating this crap and getting pissed off & thinking Bailey is just plain confused. These pops I'm supposed to be doing are making me uncomfortable. Dragging is not comfortable - (also got yelled at because I was bending over a bit I guess) I don't know how any of this is feeling to my dog and I don't like it.

Eventually I had had enough. I stepped out of the square and said I'd watch awhile. I never did rejoin the group. The dogs there did extremely well. None seemed afraid, freaking out or any other thing. Maybe 50% of them were shepherds.

At the end of the class I spoke to the trainer for awhile. He said I was too "weak in the knees" and my dog wasn't having a problem, but I was. Yes, indeed, I was. He said if he felt my dog was having an issue, he would've intervened.

This past weekend we went camping and Bailey and I worked with the prong. BUT first I put it on ME. That made me feel more confident, knowing exactly what it felt like. We practiced and he did great, though he still wants to sit sideways, facing me. Is it so wrong that I DON'T CARE if he sits sideways?

Then a few days or more ago, I found this thread: BH Training - with a lunatic and I sat here wondering if maybe I just was too weak in the knees after all.

So at this point... sigh... I'm frustrated but I just don't think Bailey is ready for that yet. He's 21 weeks now. He is definitely hitting adolesence. He is a rambunctious dude, but he responds almost immediately to a nice, firm NO if he's into something he shouldn't and generally has not returned to things he's gotten that nice firm NO about. He is very food motivated. I just feel there are better ways to go about his training and a class such as this might be a possibility -- but later. After I've worked with him more with the prong. Later.

Please don't beat the crap outta me here, I *am* looking for good, solid advice... I'm working on instinct only and don't necessarily trust myself. My other dogs are small and were pretty easily trained and dealt with. I REFUSE to have a large dog that is NOT well trained. It's just not a possibility in my world.

Thanks for reading. I hope I've included all the details.

[Jax08]

Run. First, you don't EVER DRAG a dog with a prong collar on. The fact that he told you that is a huge red flag. I trained primarily with a prong collar and there was no relationship with my dog. It was all about the correction. I think he is to young for a correction collar at all and you should be working on teaching him what you want before you correct him. I am not a positive only trainer. I feel there is a time and a place for a correction. I'm hoping that mine is not ruined on the prong collar so when I'm ready to fine tune her obedience we can still use that. However, I feel it is extremely unfair to the dog to correct him for something he doesn't understand to begin with.

Find a good clicker trainer. I think, from your previous posts, that you'll be far happier.

[middleofnowhere]

You do not need to use a prong or a choke collar, especially on a dog so young. Get a copy of Sheila Booth's "Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition" for some good tips. Pat Miller is also pretty good. You can train a lot by a variation of clicker training.
You might want to put some time in to clicker training to get Bailey into "conforming" a little bit more if you decide you want to go back to the class. And for being "weak in the knees" - just stand up for preferring another method. Go ahead and get in the trainer's face a bit. (What have you got to lose?)

[onyx'girl]

I agree with Middle and Jax. I would not let that trainer put a choke on my pup, and a prong is waay down the road...
You can also go to bowwowflix and rent Micheal Ellis videos, along with many others for $10.95 a month.

[selzer]

This is an obedience class, and these people are working on obedience heeling where the dog will sit automatically at the side and start again at heel when you continue.

Points are deducted for slow sits, and for out of position sits, and if getting a title on your dog is one of your goals, getting the position right from the git-go makes sense. Another way to train this is to have a treat in your hand, keeping it slightly above where you want the dogs head to be while in a heel, or at your waist, when you stop, put your hand up and out on the side so the dog has to look away from you to your hand, his butt curves into your leg, raise the treat up until the butt sits on the ground in the perfect position. GOOD SIT, or GOOD PLACE and give the dog the treat.

I am not a fan of prong collars, but many, many dogs, many dogs on here are trained with them. They are not evil. I like them less for dogs under six months old. I think training at that point should be fun, with lots of praise and treats. But, a lot of people want a dog ready for the ring at six months, and are more serious about the puppy-training.

I use a martingale at class. It functions like a prong without the prongs to pinch. It is less likely to cause injury than a choke chain as it is not a correction collar. However, the dog is not likely to stand up and take notice like they will with pops from a prong collar. So I have to work harder to keep the dog's focus, but with a treat in the first class or two, I do not have a problem with that.

Good luck in your class. Trust your gut. If you "hate" what is going on, so will your dog. You do not want him to associate that bad feeling with training. No chance at finding a puppy class or a household manners class. It sounds like this one is a little stiff and is starting at a more advanced place than you are. That is really not a problem. You need to realize that your puppy and you are not at their level yet. You cannot expect your dog to be perfect, prong collar or no prong collar. They have trained dogs before this way, or they have been working with their dog longer. Usually in classes, we have people on a spectrum of complete newbie to Utility Dog trainers, and those with more experience are going to have their dogs sharper, at least at first.

So try not to take being singled out and told things as being yelled at, take as though you are getting more help, because you are newer at this than the rest of the class.

Remember that your puppy is still YOUNG. Do not expect him to hold his attention as long as the others. Use treats, I would avoid popping the dog. I do not like to pop a dog, especially if I did not train a position yet. But if you continue with this class, you are going to have to adopt some of the mentality of the trainer.

[onyx'girl]

This needs to be repeated:

you should be working on teaching him what you want before you correct him.

[TechieDog]

He is perhaps a little young for a prong and basic obedience can be done without one. I worked Kato quite a bit with just a flat collar and positive marker techniques. It worked pretty well to get the basics down without compulsion. I got him at roughly 4mo. of age.
But at 6 months walking him on just a flat collar was a pain. He weighs 70+lbs, so I introduced him to the prong and gentle leash pressure using Michael Ellis techniques. At a club I visited, the Schutzhund TD told me he was too young for a prong. I struggled with that for a few days and then balked at it when he was dragging me around. He wears a prong as needed now and I work him with it on. Its kind of necessary imo and he really doesn't object to it.

I think you should try to embrace the prong collar for eventual use but if you are not happy with this trainers techniques then move on to someone else. Personally I dont think its a big deal but I do prefer positive marker training for teaching young pups the basics. Your trainer seems to be old school. I worked that way a bunch of years back but there are definitely better ways.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by selzer

This is an obedience class, and these people are working on obedience heeling where the dog will sit automatically at the side and start again at heel when you continue.

Points are deducted for slow sits, and for out of position sits, and if getting a title on your dog is one of your goals, getting the position right from the git-go makes sense. Another way to train this is to have a treat in your hand, keeping it slightly above where you want the dogs head to be while in a heel, or at your waist, when you stop, put your hand up and out on the side so the dog has to look away from you to your hand, his butt curves into your leg, raise the treat up until the butt sits on the ground in the perfect position. GOOD SIT, or GOOD PLACE and give the dog the treat.

I am not a fan of prong collars, but many, many dogs, many dogs on here are trained with them. They are not evil. I like them less for dogs under six months old. I think training at that point should be fun, with lots of praise and treats. But, a lot of people want a dog ready for the ring at six months, and are more serious about the puppy-training.

I use a martingale at class. It functions like a prong without the prongs to pinch. It is less likely to cause injury than a choke chain as it is not a correction collar. However, the dog is not likely to stand up and take notice like they will with pops from a prong collar. So I have to work harder to keep the dog's focus, but with a treat in the first class or two, I do not have a problem with that.

Good luck in your class. Trust your gut. If you "hate" what is going on, so will your dog. You do not want him to associate that bad feeling with training. No chance at finding a puppy class or a household manners class. It sounds like this one is a little stiff and is starting at a more advanced place than you are. That is really not a problem. You need to realize that your puppy and you are not at their level yet. You cannot expect your dog to be perfect, prong collar or no prong collar. They have trained dogs before this way, or they have been working with their dog longer. Usually in classes, we have people on a spectrum of complete newbie to Utility Dog trainers, and those with more experience are going to have their dogs sharper, at least at first.

So try not to take being singled out and told things as being yelled at, take as though you are getting more help, because you are newer at this than the rest of the class.

Remember that your puppy is still YOUNG. Do not expect him to hold his attention as long as the others. Use treats, I would avoid popping the dog. I do not like to pop a dog, especially if I did not train a position yet. But if you continue with this class, you are going to have to adopt some of the mentality of the trainer.

Thank you. This totally resonates. These folks ARE far ahead of where we are. I just feel it isn't fair to Bailey to throw him into this harder-core stuff just *now*. I'm not against this training necessarily though. I prefer using treats at this point, but they're not allowed in this class.

We won't be going into any rings. My future plans are continuing with obedience classes over the next couple of years, throwing in some fun classes like fetch, frisbee, flirting with agility... keeping busy, but no rings.

[Jack's Dad]

Prongs don't wig me out the way they do some people but I don't think he needs it yet. Some dogs never need it.
Having said that there is no way I would stay with that trainer. As has been said you shouldn't correct for something the dog doesn't know. Secondly no trainer is going to yell at me in an obedience class. It serves no purpose. Get another trainer please.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

This needs to be repeated:

you should be working on teaching him what you want before you correct him.

YES. That does sum it up. Ok. Maybe I just needed to hear it said, because that's how I feel. The whole thing seemed so unfair to him. I felt so guilty afterwards. Poor guy was confused more than anything, like mom, what the HECK is all this about? He was lookin at me, like, don't you love me anymore? And NO DOUBT, my ambivilence went right down the leash.