Need help training high energy/non-food motivated male to heel

infinite loop · 09-22-2011, 11:23 AM

I'm going nuts trying to get Maximus to heel.. He tugs at his leash and avoids eye contact, despite my best efforts to get his attention with noises and treats.

The only slight success I have is to move a few feet in a good heel, praise him, and try to give him a treat. He will often ignore the treat and use the opportunity to bolt/pull.

I want him to be at my side, preferably making eye contact with me, for a good distance (let's say 10 feet to start) - how can I pull it off considering he is completely ignoring all of the treats I've offered?

mssandslinger · 09-22-2011, 11:53 AM

you should try a gentle leader at first to get him used to healing. they work wonders for me!

sit,stay · 09-22-2011, 12:27 PM

I love having the option of the Gentle Leader for when we are out walking with the kids (my son and niece and nephews) and they want to hold the leash. Jackson is a big dog, and could easily yank my youngest nephew off his feet. But the Gentle Leader gives even Aaron great control (and always being closely supervised).

But in all my years using the Gentle Leader, I don't think I have ever been able to actually transfer the "No pulling" from the head halter to a flat buckle collar or any other type of collar. There just doesn't seem to be any training away the behavior of pulling when using the head halter. I think with the head halter-type it is all about the management of the behavior, rather than training away that behavior. So I don't think I use a Gentle Leader or Halti to train heeling. Even though I love using one on Jackson for causal walks!

I own a dog who is pretty disinterested in food rewards. It took me almost two years to finally understand that I could mix it up with him. So I started using a ball on a tug to reward, and I would mix it up a little and use home made baked liver bits. Sometimes I would toss the ball for him as a reward, sometimes I would reward him with the liver and sometimes I would play a quick game of tug. He could never tell what it would be, and ended up more consistently focused. Think outside the box, and try different things! It sure made a difference for me (once I woke up and realized it)!

He had (still has) a shorter window than some other dogs. So I have to keep it short with him, even now when he is 5 years old. And I have to get and keep his focus before it wanders, because once he becomes focused on something else, it can be hard to break that and get him to focus on me.

Maybe with your puppy you are waiting until he is already focused on something else? If that is the case, back up to where he isn't focused on whatever it was and then work from there. If you see that you lose his focus after walking three feet, try walking only 2 feet. If he loses his focus when he gets 30 feet from a car, start working with him at 50 feet away.

Goah, when Tanner was a youngster, getting three strides of really good heeling was a success! Start where the puppy is at and then work your way from there. Training is all about the slow, incremental steps on the way to the goal. Break it down into benchmarks!

And don't forget to have fun!
Sheilah

Gracie's My Girl · 09-22-2011, 10:43 PM

Like others have said, I would use a leader. We use the Easy Walk Harness and it is amazing. I am able to get our puppy to my side and have her stay there. A lunging, pulling dog is misery to walk. Using these kinds of leaders helps tremendously.

What kind of treats are you using? In highly distracting situations, our puppy is not interested in treats. However, we tried using small pieces of cooked chicken this evening...and it helped me to redirect her attention very easily. Getting extremely high quality treats (think smelly, moist) can help interest dogs who ignore some of the more traditional dry treats.

If treats are completely out, perhaps there is a toy you could interest your pup in?

saraja87 · 09-23-2011, 12:58 AM

We used a gentle leader first with our puppy to help clue her into the fact that she's supposed to be next to us and not pull. She's not super excitable but she isn't very food motivated so even the best treats can only go so far. She did wonderfully on her leader for three months, no tugging or pulling, beautiful heeling. We had no intentions of using anything else until she was about a year (she just turned 6 months now) when our novice obedience trainer suggested we all try transitioning our pups to flat collars. The following exercise is treat free, you only use praise.

First, you put some noisy, clanky things on your pup's D ring. We used a couple keys in class to really make them rattle. We then attached the leash and held the pup at our left side. We started walking and our girl predictably jerked to the end of her leash and tuuuuggggged as hard as she could to go play with the other dogs. When she reached the end of her leash, our trainer had us snap the leash the same way you'd snap a towel so that the keys jingled loudly. You place your right foot back when you snap and walk a few steps backwards so the puppy has to come to you. You then put one hand at the pup's collar under her chin and one under her rear and put her at your left side. Then you really have to love on them with pets and praise.

We'd let her jerk to the end of the leash, snap the leash to jingle the keys, and place her back at our left side. After 5 snaps she'd completely gotten the point and the next time she pulled to the end of her leash, we stopped, she felt the tug and stopped, looked back at us, and ran back to my left side for lots of praise.

We practice every morning on her walk and she's been amazing, walking at my left side with her leash in a loose J. She even slows down her pace to match mine and after 4 days I no longer have the snap the leash, just send a little shake down the leash to jingle the keys whenever she starts to get too far away and she self corrects. When we walked by a really reactive dog who barked and lunged at her from across the street she pulled to the end of her leash and again, snap, snap and she was back and my side waiting for her next command.

I wasn't expecting it to be such an effective training method and I really like that I don't have to pull and tug at her neck. The leash snap sounds a little scary and makes noise but doesn't hurt her neck or choke her. I'll probably get her a martingale eventually but she's been doing wonderfully on her regular old nylon collar and I'd highly recommend this method to anyone else.

With really tough dogs, the trainer suggested starting the walk on a gentle leader and then stopping halfway through to switch to the flat collar. That way your dog is already used to being next to you and listening before you try them on the flat collar.

sharkey19 · 09-25-2011, 12:50 AM

I love the New Trix collar more than the Gentle Leader or Halti. It doesn't rub their nose as much, and doesn't jerk their neck. My guy was also not food motivated in the least. We need to play tug with him to motivate him. After a few months on the New Trix, he walks quite nicely, even when we use his regular collar. However, I still use the New Trix just because he has an insanely high prey drive, and should something like a squirrel or rabbit jump out, I have better control over him.

**MaggieRoseLee** · 09-25-2011, 07:58 AM

How old is he?

What are you using for treats?

How hungry is he.

HOW OFTEN ARE YOU TREATING????? Even better 'How often are you CLICKING and treating?

Clearly, your dog doesn't 'get' what you are training. And when my dog isn't, I need to reward MUCH more frequently and break down what I'm training into much smaller steps. Hungry dog with REAL treats (human kind) help.

It's not the final 'heel for 10' looking up at me' that I'm training. It's just the looking. Or looking and sitting beside me. Or looking and ONE STEP....

But before ANY of that I need a happy and enthusiasic pup that is ENGAGING with me. So if I need to backtrack to work on that, I do... then work on any training.

The Importance of ENGAGEMENT in Dog Training - YouTube

Michael Ellis: Beginning Heeling - YouTube

Michael Ellis: True Attention Heeling - YouTube

Michael Ellis on the Importance of Rewarding Your Dog Correctly when Heeling - YouTube

GSDElsa · 09-25-2011, 08:12 AM

First, what kind of feeling are you wanting? Lose lead walking or competition heeling?

I think you need to take a step back and work on engagement ans getting him interested in you. Lack of eye contact and bolting seems like avoidance to me. You can't really expect him to focus on you and learn to heel if he can't focus on you without doing something else. He sounds stressed and confused to me.

Also you can work on food being more exciting by him working for it at meal times.but a lot of dogs won't take treats if they are stressed out

bocron · 09-25-2011, 08:24 AM

Some food for thought regarding head halters.

Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters

Jax08 · 09-25-2011, 09:34 AM

Is he motivated by a toy? How about by his supper? I used Jax's supper for a long time to build value for treats but I primarily use her frisbee.

09-22-2011, 11:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
infinite loop Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 62	Need help training high energy/non-food motivated male to heel I'm going nuts trying to get Maximus to heel.. He tugs at his leash and avoids eye contact, despite my best efforts to get his attention with noises and treats. The only slight success I have is to move a few feet in a good heel, praise him, and try to give him a treat. He will often ignore the treat and use the opportunity to bolt/pull. I want him to be at my side, preferably making eye contact with me, for a good distance (let's say 10 feet to start) - how can I pull it off considering he is completely ignoring all of the treats I've offered?

09-22-2011, 11:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
mssandslinger Master Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: arizona/ where we only have one season Posts: 643	you should try a gentle leader at first to get him used to healing. they work wonders for me! __________________ "And they call it...puppy looooovvveeee"

09-23-2011, 12:58 AM	#5 (permalink)
saraja87 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 126	We used a gentle leader first with our puppy to help clue her into the fact that she's supposed to be next to us and not pull. She's not super excitable but she isn't very food motivated so even the best treats can only go so far. She did wonderfully on her leader for three months, no tugging or pulling, beautiful heeling. We had no intentions of using anything else until she was about a year (she just turned 6 months now) when our novice obedience trainer suggested we all try transitioning our pups to flat collars. The following exercise is treat free, you only use praise. First, you put some noisy, clanky things on your pup's D ring. We used a couple keys in class to really make them rattle. We then attached the leash and held the pup at our left side. We started walking and our girl predictably jerked to the end of her leash and tuuuuggggged as hard as she could to go play with the other dogs. When she reached the end of her leash, our trainer had us snap the leash the same way you'd snap a towel so that the keys jingled loudly. You place your right foot back when you snap and walk a few steps backwards so the puppy has to come to you. You then put one hand at the pup's collar under her chin and one under her rear and put her at your left side. Then you really have to love on them with pets and praise. We'd let her jerk to the end of the leash, snap the leash to jingle the keys, and place her back at our left side. After 5 snaps she'd completely gotten the point and the next time she pulled to the end of her leash, we stopped, she felt the tug and stopped, looked back at us, and ran back to my left side for lots of praise. We practice every morning on her walk and she's been amazing, walking at my left side with her leash in a loose J. She even slows down her pace to match mine and after 4 days I no longer have the snap the leash, just send a little shake down the leash to jingle the keys whenever she starts to get too far away and she self corrects. When we walked by a really reactive dog who barked and lunged at her from across the street she pulled to the end of her leash and again, snap, snap and she was back and my side waiting for her next command. I wasn't expecting it to be such an effective training method and I really like that I don't have to pull and tug at her neck. The leash snap sounds a little scary and makes noise but doesn't hurt her neck or choke her. I'll probably get her a martingale eventually but she's been doing wonderfully on her regular old nylon collar and I'd highly recommend this method to anyone else. With really tough dogs, the trainer suggested starting the walk on a gentle leader and then stopping halfway through to switch to the flat collar. That way your dog is already used to being next to you and listening before you try them on the flat collar. __________________ Pippin, Shetland Sheepdog (1997 - 2011) - RIP sweet boy Haji Baba, Tabby Cat (1996 - 2012) - RIP my heart Button, Black Long Coat Cat (~June 5th, 2006) Milou Van Der Maas, Long Coat GSD (March 23, 2011)

09-25-2011, 08:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
GSDElsa Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Central, NY Posts: 3,706	First, what kind of feeling are you wanting? Lose lead walking or competition heeling? I think you need to take a step back and work on engagement ans getting him interested in you. Lack of eye contact and bolting seems like avoidance to me. You can't really expect him to focus on you and learn to heel if he can't focus on you without doing something else. He sounds stressed and confused to me. Also you can work on food being more exciting by him working for it at meal times.but a lot of dogs won't take treats if they are stressed out __________________ Justine, mom to: - Elsa - BrightStar Rescue - "Da Pookins" - Medo Aritar Bastet - "The Beast From The East"

09-25-2011, 08:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
bocron Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Milton, Georgia Posts: 1,461	Some food for thought regarding head halters. Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters __________________ Annette Holbrook www.coppercreekdvg.com- All Breed Schutzhund Club Home of Umarek von Hugelblick, my good luck charm!

09-22-2011, 12:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
sit,stay Knighted Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,056	I love having the option of the Gentle Leader for when we are out walking with the kids (my son and niece and nephews) and they want to hold the leash. Jackson is a big dog, and could easily yank my youngest nephew off his feet. But the Gentle Leader gives even Aaron great control (and always being closely supervised). But in all my years using the Gentle Leader, I don't think I have ever been able to actually transfer the "No pulling" from the head halter to a flat buckle collar or any other type of collar. There just doesn't seem to be any training away the behavior of pulling when using the head halter. I think with the head halter-type it is all about the management of the behavior, rather than training away that behavior. So I don't think I use a Gentle Leader or Halti to train heeling. Even though I love using one on Jackson for causal walks! I own a dog who is pretty disinterested in food rewards. It took me almost two years to finally understand that I could mix it up with him. So I started using a ball on a tug to reward, and I would mix it up a little and use home made baked liver bits. Sometimes I would toss the ball for him as a reward, sometimes I would reward him with the liver and sometimes I would play a quick game of tug. He could never tell what it would be, and ended up more consistently focused. Think outside the box, and try different things! It sure made a difference for me (once I woke up and realized it)! He had (still has) a shorter window than some other dogs. So I have to keep it short with him, even now when he is 5 years old. And I have to get and keep his focus before it wanders, because once he becomes focused on something else, it can be hard to break that and get him to focus on me. Maybe with your puppy you are waiting until he is already focused on something else? If that is the case, back up to where he isn't focused on whatever it was and then work from there. If you see that you lose his focus after walking three feet, try walking only 2 feet. If he loses his focus when he gets 30 feet from a car, start working with him at 50 feet away. Goah, when Tanner was a youngster, getting three strides of really good heeling was a success! Start where the puppy is at and then work your way from there. Training is all about the slow, incremental steps on the way to the goal. Break it down into benchmarks! And don't forget to have fun! Sheilah

09-22-2011, 10:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Gracie's My Girl Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 330	Like others have said, I would use a leader. We use the Easy Walk Harness and it is amazing. I am able to get our puppy to my side and have her stay there. A lunging, pulling dog is misery to walk. Using these kinds of leaders helps tremendously. What kind of treats are you using? In highly distracting situations, our puppy is not interested in treats. However, we tried using small pieces of cooked chicken this evening...and it helped me to redirect her attention very easily. Getting extremely high quality treats (think smelly, moist) can help interest dogs who ignore some of the more traditional dry treats. If treats are completely out, perhaps there is a toy you could interest your pup in?

09-25-2011, 12:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
sharkey19 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Guelph Posts: 321	I love the New Trix collar more than the Gentle Leader or Halti. It doesn't rub their nose as much, and doesn't jerk their neck. My guy was also not food motivated in the least. We need to play tug with him to motivate him. After a few months on the New Trix, he walks quite nicely, even when we use his regular collar. However, I still use the New Trix just because he has an insanely high prey drive, and should something like a squirrel or rabbit jump out, I have better control over him.

09-25-2011, 09:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jax08 Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NNE PA Posts: 14,337	Is he motivated by a toy? How about by his supper? I used Jax's supper for a long time to build value for treats but I primarily use her frisbee.

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