Weird Drive?

[GSDElsa]

OK. We've had Elsa for about 6 weeks (she is a rescue that is about a year old) and had her "checked out" by several trainers who mostly specialize in GSD's. It was more of a casual play-date get-together rather than us going to a class or real training session. But they have all been very impressed with her smarts, focus, and drive and both specifically suggested thinking about getting her into tracking.

We don't know much about her other than she was found as a stray and had obviously never been in a house, car, brushed, in a crate, seen a hose, or been on a leash. She was a mess! But she has taken everything in stride and you would never know that a mere 9 weeks ago she was found wandering the streets without knowing what a normal dog's life is about. It's kind of amusing that everywhere we go, people are in awe as to what breeder we got her from and who we took her to train. She no doubt needs a ton of work still and is by far perfect, but she's literally done a 180 in 6 weeks time. She's aloof with strangers, but a velcro dog with us.

Tracking and SAR has always fascinated me (I doubt SAR would ever be a reality since she's so far behind the swing), but I suppose you never know!). I've been reading up on it, and doing my own mini evals around the neighborhood. She's got a pretty high prey drive. It's definitely not the most intense I've seen, but it's there. No squirrel, fly (or bee! Don't like that one...), or falling leaf escapes her stalking it.

My drive concern with her is playing fetch. She loves her toys, but will suddenly ignore them if REAL prey is around (again...fly, lead, squirrel, etc) and doesn't seem to quite understand how to play with them. She's get intense and chase after them and will continue this, but she seems to like to "kill" her prey rather than come back, give it up, and do it again. She likes to lay down and chew on the toy. She'll let me take it and will chase it with as much intensity again, but doesn't really want to bring it back. She also doesn't really get tug. I've been trying to encourage her to play tug and really build up the anticipation of throwing it, but she hasn't gotten the tugging back thing yet. She will for a second, and then release it.

HOWEVER...this somewhat wishy-washy/confused toy drive goes out the window and super-crazy intense killer dog comes out if you drag the toy along the ground. She becomes OBSESSED with the toy and will chase it to no end and nothing can distract her.

From everything I've read, toy drive is very important in tracking. Does her toy drive even come close to a dog that could have some serious fun with tracking or is the fetch/tug ambivalent behavior enough to say she won't cut it?

I'm sure there is a lot more info I could provide, I just don't know what to include!

[Tbarrios333]

It sounds to me like she just doesn't know HOW to play fetch.
It's natural in some dogs and in others you have to teach them to bring it back.
One way you can teach it is to fetch on a long line and teach her to bring it back, trade for a treat, throw again.
Another way is the two ball method mixed with running away from her when she's fetched the ball.

Best way to deal with the "real" pray drive is to teach her "Leave it".

Maybe she would like a flirt pole with a tiny stuffed animal attached? That's GREAT and you can teach her anything if you can get her so focused on the toy dragging.

[Tbarrios333]

Also, another idea.
Awesome way to teach impulse control is to practice NOT letting her chase the stuffed animal on the flirt pole until released with an OK.

Eventually you can let her chase when released and then you can ask her to STOP chasing when asked to.

I think this dog has great potential.

[BowWowMeow]

If you can get a hold of this month's Whole Dog Journal there is an excellent article with detailed instructions on how to teach your dog to play fetch: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss...h_16157-1.html

[aubie]

I rigged up a flirt pole with a horse whip, twine and a skinnez all from Tractor Supply for like $15. Anna loves it!

[GSDElsa]

Thanks for the suggestions! We've definitely been teaching the "leave it" approach it's a more "ehhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!" thing. She'll usually stop and kind of give a "what?? I wasn't doing nuthin'" look. And with live running animals scurrying accross the street--she has to go into a down stay and remain there until she's not paying attention to the animal and is back paying attention to me.

I'll have to try and rig up our own flirt pole!

As far as the Whole Dog Journal...anyone a subscriber that could email me the file for the article cut and paste? Or maybe even scan and email...but that might be asking for too much! I'll see if Barnes and Nobel has the magazine, as we're going there this afternoon.

[Cassidy's Mom]

You can go to their site and order specific articles from previous issues, but at $20 a year for a subscription, I'd just do that instead. Copying and pasting articles violates copyright laws. It might be too late to get the current issue sent to you, but if you sign up for a subscription through the website right away you can probably read it online.

[Liesje]

I'm not so familiar with tracking or SAR, but what you describe sounds absolutely typical of a GSD as far as general training and Schutzhund training. Retrieving (wanting to bring the object back to you) is not a natural thing for them. Nikon originally acted exactly how you describe and he is doing just fine in Schutzhund, tracking might be his strongest phase at the moment. Retrieving is not really part of inherent toy drive. You have to train/teach the dog that bringing the toy BACK re-initiates the play (either throwing the toy, jerking it around, etc). They don't often put this together on their own.

For a formal retrieve, most people backchain it, but if you are more interested in using it as play/motivation and tapping into drives, I think the easiest way is to start with the dog on a long line. Get her worked up into drive and chasing the toy. When she gets it, reel her back into you with the line and start the game again. Another method I used was having two of the same toy, so when one is chased and picked up, I immediately start making a big fuss over the one I have in my hand, the dog comes back to see what I've got and then we start over.

I disagree with some of the advice in this thread (if I am interpreting it correctly) as far as impulse control, but this depends on your goals. If all you are looking for is building drive and using the toys to motivate and reward your dog, then you don't need impulse control and don't want to use it as an obedience exercise, at least not yet. At first, use it to tap into the dog's drive and build a bond with play.

I do use toys in obedience for SchH but what I typically do is teach the dog the new skill/command using food, so there is no immediate association with toys or drive or anything like that. When the dog understands the skill, THEN I use the toy to bring the dog into drive and perform the skill with more speed and intensity, and use the toy to reward. I don't do a lot of impulse control with a toy because that's not what I want, I WANT my dog to always be hyper crazy obsessed with his toy rewards and hold nothing back.

[Tbarrios333]

It's another use of the "Wait" command you would use before feeding a meal. It's not about reducing their drive, it's more having them wait for your OK to start chasing the toy.

With BF's parents GSD she has some serious energy to burn and a great mental exercise for her is putting her in a down-stay, throwing her ball and then asking her to wait for an OK to chase it.

It's a way to help them build their own self control and IMO is especially helpful in a dog that has reactivity issues or is just hyperactive and can be good to build focus.

[GSDElsa]

Lies, totally get what you're saying and I agree. I think everyone had good ideas. However, I do think she needs some serious impulse control/focus with the general distractions that make her totally tune me out and turn into crazy dog. I guess I'll not worry about her toys right now for the impulse control and just use the distractions in the environment to work on that issue. Baby steps.

Just yesterday evening I got some serious rope burn from the training lead...we were in the backyard and I was fixing my shoe, looking down on 1 leg. SOMETHING juicy was taunting her, because next thing I know she's off like a speeding bullet trying to get into the "forest" behind the house. I saw a little bush movement...I'm figuring it was a squirrel or one of the woodchucks I've been at war with over our disappearing veggie garden.