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All the things I should be doing

11K views 51 replies 21 participants last post by  Beau's Mom 
#1 · (Edited)
What are ALL the things I should do before I decide to breed or determine whether my dog is breeding worthy? A list would be nice.

And what about ALL the things that go well beyond the minimum requirements? At the highest level of breeding? Like Lord's Schutzhund/IPO training.

Like maybe different categories?

Health (OFA, OFEL, DM, etc)
Training (Schutzhund/IPO, agility, tracking, K9, etc)
Clubs (where to find them, what different ones there are) in the PNW
Events (different events around the world and locally)
Titles (all the different possible titles and how to get them)

What else? I know I can go hunt all over the forums in each respective section, but just for the sake of breeding/simply working/proving your dog, a compiled list would be very helpful I think.

I would like to know immediate actions I can take and straight forward steps to take rather than discussing the nature of breeding like choosing complimentary mates and temperament, feel free to bring it up if need be, but I mainly want to locate the/a source(s) where I can go and gain all the necessary information by going to the access point so to speak.

I am good at learning as I observe in real-time, but of course first gather all the necessary concepts and groundwork of understanding, so if I can go to a club or event that would explain all this it would be the most effective way I think.
 
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#2 ·
For Schutzhund specifically, find a club, go meet the members and watch the training. If you are a good fit, the club will extend membership to you. Stay quiet, listen, and observe. You will realize that you dog most likely isn't the best candidate for breeding and that's ok. Train your current dog and become a better handler for your next dog. Find a mentor, someone who's really willing to take you under their wing. Schutzhund has a way of exposing weaknesses in your dog you might not see otherwise. Search the United Schutzhund Club of America's site to find a list of clubs by region.
 
#3 ·
Yes, I have already found clubs in my region, will be joining/going to one soon.

You will realize that you dog most likely isn't the best candidate for breeding and that's ok.
Why do you think this? Any reason in particular? Have you seen my dog's pedigree? She has a Lord in her bloodline, one of the top working-line dog breeders in Schutzhund IPO (I linked the thread in OP). And I know this doesn't guarantee anything, but at least I know for a fact that Schutzhund trained dogs are in her bloodline.
 
#9 ·
Not a breeder, and new to this particular breed (not new to dogs), so take this for what it's worth...but a lot of this will carry over. Stream of consciousness blabber to follow:

Start by going out and getting first hand, real world experience. Train and title your dog to prove its ability. CGC isn't enough to say your dog is ready for breeding, but absolutely start there to see if you enjoy working with your dog. Then move on to bigger and better things. Give some other disclipine a try...don't stop at the novice title. Prove to everyone that you have an amazing dog. Observe other dogs at shows and trials and see if you can learn about them. Research, research, research. Know the major lines you will be working with and what they bring to the table. Having met the dogs personally really helps here. Find out what genetics you like, decide the purpose of breeding certain dogs/lines and what you would hope to accomplish and produce from the results of your breeding. Talk with lots of breeders. Don't be in a rush to do anything, if you decide to be a breeder it will be a years-long journey, not a destination of having a litter of puppies. Be a good, reputable, breeder that people can trust by learning as much as you can about every single facet of owning, taking care of, and training the breed. Ask yourself lots of brutal questions and be completely honest with yourself when you answer. When you find some breeders that produce amazing dogs, ask if they will mentor you. Nobody can learn all this stuff on their own. Having a mentor will allow you to get answers to questions you don't even know exist when starting out. A good mentor can hold your hand through tough decisions and help you celebrate in the good times. They should become a friend.

How many examples of the breed have you owned/interacted with? How old are you and where in life are you? What are your biggest worries and concerns?

I hope you can learn a lot here and go on to be successful in what you choose to do! I think from what I have seen in the successful breeders I have met over the years is that they all took their time in educating themselves about every aspect of the breed. Not internet education, but real life education by meeting as many dogs as they could, learning what to look for, being able to interpret what they saw, and having a vision of what they wished to produce.
 
#10 ·
If you NEED a list of things to determine if your dog is breedworthy, then YOU probably are not ready to be breeding. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean that breeding is more art than science based on knowledge and experience.....once you acquire knowledge THROUGH experience you will begin to understand what you don't understand and can't be explained in words.
Get out there and do some high level training and experience some quality breeding dogs....then you have a start of at least comparing your dog to something tangible.
 
#12 ·
And what about ALL the things that go well beyond the minimum requirements? At the highest level of breeding? Like Lord's Schutzhund/IPO training.
I just wanted to point out, that Schutzhund/IPO titles ARE Minimum requirements. Schutzhund was designed as a Breed Test, meaning that only the dogs that earned a minimum of SchH I would be considered breedworthy. This is still a requirement in the SV. That is why so many of the pedigrees of German Showlines and Working lines have nothing BUT SchH titled dogs in their pedigree - without titling, the dogs did not qualify for breeding, and their offspring would not be allowed to be registered.

So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.
 
#28 ·
So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.
I never got to reply to the second part of your post. I completely agree. 100%. That's my plan. Very well-put.
 
#13 ·
This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential.

"What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete.

People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.

That thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.
 
#16 · (Edited)
This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential.

"What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete.

People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.

That thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.
THIS, a hundred times, this!!

As I explained to you in my last PM, I took a LOT of flack from certain club members because my dog was a mix of American and German showlines, and of course, ASLs have NO working ability, according to some people, and the German showlines are almost as useless. Proved 'em wrong, of course! But people are always going to find something to pick on, in any competitive sport. I put up with exactly the same thing when I used to ride. You learn to grow a thick skin pretty quickly.

Lord vom Gliesdrieck is the famous dog I found multiple times in the 7th and 8th generation of her dog's pedigree. The other Lord is there, too, but Winnal has confused the two. However, as an experienced breeder will tell you, it's the more recent generations of the pedigree that have the biggest influence on the dog, and well, those aren't all that great. Dad's side is better than mom's, and after looking at the colours of the dogs in the pedigree, I think I can see where her dog's colour came from. The colours are mostly sable, and a number of them are rather faded silver sables, with white underneath.

I've strongly advised her to get DNA done, so she has a good comeback when people insist the dog isn't purebred. I think it most likely is. And given the pedigree, I think the potential to make a good working dog is definitely there, too.
 
#17 ·
I don't think I am subscribed to the site and I could see it-Glacier wasn't the OP
I know, I was curious about her dog's pedigree, but when I clicked on Glacier's link, it didn't work. :) It said this: Visible to registered members
 
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#21 ·
She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.

This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled... :mad:
 
#26 ·
Well she's not 2 years yet, almost. Yeah, planning on a vet visit soon.

I'm not posting my pedigree yet personally, because I'm just not comfortable with a lot of you using a lot of presumptions to make judgement, which is absolutely the worst thing you can do in debate or any sort of logical order of processing truth and reality. I have some background knowledge in law and just debating in general, and I see so many argument fallacies when attempting to disprove me and using so many strawman arguments and red herrings, it's just not ideal for me to post it so soon, until I get the DNA testing done and I am for sure myself that she is pure before I let you guys dive into critiquing her ancestry.

If you appeal to me personally, I'm certainly willing to send it to you privately, as I have done with Sunsilver, thanks again. <3
 
#27 ·
Dm takes a swab test. Cost about 60 bucks. Can be done at any age.
So can the multitude of other genetic tests.

I personally don't doubt your dog is probably purebred. First because I have seen the coloring before and second because I have worked with all manner of byb shepherds and seen all manner of types and coloring. Lol.
To be perfectly honest I know only what I have learned here about pedigrees. I am personally more interested in the breeder.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window.
Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs.
I'm assuming you really want to do this right:smile2:, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed.
I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive.
When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I'm glad you're putting so much effort into "trying" to help me, by telling me straight up that I shouldn't even try.

I'm not looking for any subjective advice to sway me in "realizing" I shouldn't even try to see if she is breeding worthy, because, "it'll probably be too late".

I know all you're saying is presuming that I do not realize the amount of work required to breed. Just leave it to the pros. Well, without people like me (that want to learn and start somewhere), there wouldn't be pros to begin with.

That's like saying, "don't even try, because you're probably not going to make it."

I want objective facts and actions to take.

I'm glad you think my "imaginary" list (idk what that means, it's physically written, so not really imaginary) is complete. That means apparently I already learned all the things I need to go and do/learn, and it only took me 2 days to figure it all out (based on your statement that there is nothing more that can be added to the list), thanks to some very helpful people on here (Sunsilver).

By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once.

Thanks anyway! :)
 
#32 ·
I'm not a breeder (though I know many in real life), so here's my recommendation. Find an experienced, reputable breeder who's done something with their dogs (e.g., IPO, obedience, conformation showing) for years. Not someone who's simply bred dogs, but someone who's 'proofed' their breeding --- over generations --- in recognized competitions. Someone who also health tests their lines and can show you the results of that testing, over generations. Once you've found her/him, see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. If said person is willing, s/he can teach you more far about pedigrees, breeding, raising and handling dogs, etc., than you can ever learn from the internet, books, and the like.

Warning: Finding the right mentor will take time, as will establishing and developing a mentoring relationship. But, if it's important to you, what you'll learn will be priceless.

Aly
 
#33 ·
I just get from reading these posts from valued members (with so much experience) that they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete. Pointing out that this dog will probably not be trialed and health tested in her breeding window is just giving you the practical aspects. What you learn with her, will guide your next choice of puppy if breeding is your desire. Always remember those puppies are your responsibility for life, should their future homes become unfeasible.
 
#34 · (Edited)
That logic doesn't hold up at all. How can you say I'm trying to breed already when I'm trying to learn how first and start doing the things I need to determine if I should first? I think it's just personal vendetta. It's always the same people saying no to me over and over, including you (some have backed off because at least now they understand I'm not breeding for the wrong reason).

It's more like, they don't want my list complete, because they don't want me to ever get to the actual breeding part. No worries, I'll do it myself.

Based on your statement, "they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete". First of all, you say, "try breeding", which is false, because I'm not going to try until I determine if I should and do the things necessary to decide, secondly, if they don't want me to "try breeding" until my list is complete, then why not try and complete the list so I can try breeding. That doesn't add up at all.

Once again, the notion of, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so don't even try, or don't ask us."

Or, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so we're not going to tell you how until you figure it out yourself." (lol)

And you claim, the dog probably won't be ready in time, then give specifics like, the estimated amount of time it takes to do all these things, and I'm guessing you have no numbers, because it's completely based on the person and how fast they learn, their resources, training, management, ability, knowledge and experience (presuming I have none of these at all). So, I am going to pass on your 'probability' without any statistics backing it up.

Have a nice day. :)
 
#35 · (Edited)
How about just tell me what I need to know (or don't) and leave it to time to decide whether I can do it all in time, instead of presuming that I won't have the time and subjectively state that I shouldn't try because of this. All that does is add discouragement without any benefit or actual substance to my cause, just demeans it, pretty much shows your intent in posting. :)

So, I realized I'll just be here arguing forever and gain nothing (because none of you want to give me anything) with you naysayers telling me I shouldn't try at all, I get you want me gone. Like you guys said, I have no time to waste. I'm out. PDB here I come.
 
#36 ·
"By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once."

Winnal, what people are trying to tell you is that the learning process takes TIME and EXPERIENCE. You can't just learn everything you need to know from a book, or the internet in a couple of weeks! That's like putting on a pair of skates for the first time, and expecting you're ready to compete in the NHL the very next week. Okay, bad analogy, maybe, but I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say.

BTW, need to apologize for calling Winnal a 'she'. Not sure how I arrived at that assumption, but it's wrong...:blush:
 
#37 ·
The list should be far enough now for you to get started and see where you stand. You have many many threads and previous statements that probably makes people take your posts with a grain or two of salt. Remember this is the internet, and "if it's on the internet, it's got to be true"
 
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#39 ·
#41 · (Edited)
The breeder of Winnal's dog is NOT the sort you'd want as a mentor. There are some very good working line dogs in the pedigree, though, starting with the grandfather of his dog.

Thanks, Winnal! That one's going to take you awhile to read... :D Coat colour genetics are complicated, and I don't pretend to completely understand them myself. I've given you some good resources for them, though.
 
#42 ·
You want to feel like your dog is from 'champion lines' and quality for breeding, would you be able to accept if she weren't? Plenty of us here do not have breeding worthy dogs, there's many here who don't even have purebred dogs but GSD mixes, it doesn't define how we feel about our dogs.

People here just want you to be smart about this. You have to realize that with your current knowledge and the inexperienced questions you've been asking, you're still years from being ready to be a reputable breeder, you likely won't even be ready until after your bitches breeding years.
 
#44 ·
I was thinking about titling a dog, and how I had no idea, when I got Carly, how long it could take. I know the OP isn't going to do AKC conformation, but it took us a solid year from winning that first point to getting a championship on Carly, who is a nice bitch. I couldn't afford to show every weekend, and even if I could've, it's just not that easy. I spent roughly $5000 showing her. She was 2 months shy of her 3rd birthday when I finished her. I have a mentor and my mentor's mentor, and I still know next to nothing, lol.

Winnal, it's a process. A long process. Enjoy your girl, and learn with her. What's her name btw?
 
#45 · (Edited)
I mean like whatever you guys are saying is not even based on a concrete time in the first place. Unless you're saying it's gunna take me 5+ years to "learn and do" all the things I need to, then explain to me where you came up with such a number. Exactly, out of the blue. And if I do miss it, then so what? Let time decide that, not you assume it.

I have a SchH3 female who started greying at 1 1/2 yrs. old. The greying is a separate gene, as is masking. I also had a bi-colored czech import bitch, Bena od Volfu, who had no greying at 13 yrs.

The age limit on breeding a bitch has many factors involved. Condition, quality ( structural, pedigree, work ethic, titles), and mental age. Some dogs are aged at 6, some not until 12. Breeding an older bitch also depends on previous breeding. If the bitch is aged and maiden, I would not breed her. Many bitches have difficulty supporting a male, if not in top condition. My SchH3 bitch is almost 10 (Nov.13, 1999). She is presently bred, however, she is a bitch who has an outstanding pedigree, work ethic, hardness, trainability and has produced very well. She had no problem supporting a very large male. IMHO, for any bitch to be bred, they should have the abiltiy to better the breed. With every breeding, there is a calculated risk of the bitch not producing milk, puppies or the entire litter dying, the bitch killing the pups, the bitch dying, c-section, etc. Lots to think about, even breeding a bitch with everything picture perfect. Then there are the puppies to sell into the correct homes..................it never ends! It takes love, commitment, and dedication.

Debbie Wade
Just proves you're all trolling. I'm out for real this time.
 
#49 ·
I mean like whatever you guys are saying is not even based on a concrete time in the first place. Unless you're saying it's gunna take me 5+ years to "learn and do" all the things I need to, then explain to me where you came up with such a number. Exactly, out of the blue. And if I do miss it, then so what? Let time decide that, not you assume it.

Just proves you're all trolling. I'm out for real this time.
Time from the time I started learning and researching until I bred my first litter, 13 years. And I still don't know even close to all that I need to know about everything. It's best to breed females before they get too old. You're looking at probably 3-4 years minimum to get even basic titles on her, depending on how many trials you enter and how often you go to training. Maybe even longer.


And, in the end, with this female, given her color, you won't find any responsible owners of titled proven males who would allow you to breed to their dogs. They are not going to be willing to have their name associated with anything so far out of standard.
 
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