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-   -   What titles make a dog breedworthy? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/428410-what-titles-make-dog-breedworthy.html)

glowingtoadfly 03-23-2014 06:12 PM

What titles make a dog breedworthy?
 
In another thread, a discussion came up about the CGC and HIC, and how they do or do not make a dog breedworthy. I would like to hear people's opinions on what titles do and do not make a dog worthy of the breed.

onyx'girl 03-23-2014 06:17 PM

I don't think any title alone makes a dog breedworthy. It is the total dog and the genetics behind it. The titles prove the dogs workability and temperament, but I'd never breed a dog based on the titles earned... If the handler or owner puts time and effort into titling the dog it doesn't make it 'better' than one that hasn't had those opportunities. That said~ titles are worthy of course, just shouldn't be the focus of a breeding program.
CGC isn't a title IMO....it is a certificate of passing a good citizen test/same goes for the HIT, just a cert, not a title.
Though of course AKC recognizes the CGC as a title. BH shouldn't be considered a title either, it is a stepping stone to moving on to earn titles.

DaniFani 03-23-2014 06:19 PM

Imo it isn't about the titles as much as it is the work done to get the titles and honest evaluations of the dog for breed worthy attributes seen during the process of achieving a title. I know plenty of dogs with titles that shouldn't be bred. Lots of breeders buying titled dogs for the marketability of the title, when they know little themselves about the dogs or what "great" looks like, because they aren't working the dogs themselves. When I was talking to breeders my first question was, "are you working and titling your dog's?" If not, I moved on. I don't believe you can make many claims about your breeding stock if you aren't working it. Just mho. After I asked that question, I'd want to have someone I trust with me evaluating the sire and dam. My guy came from out of country, so had people my TD trusts (who I trust greatly) check everything out for me.

shepherdmom 03-23-2014 07:28 PM

Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.

onyx'girl 03-23-2014 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shepherdmom (Post 5254402)
Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.

Because a dog that has IPO titles will be a natural biter? Dogs with IPO titles can also have SAR or Therapy titles...a well rounded GSD can do most anything. I'd personally never really look at a breeder that has CGC's as their brag..especially if that dog earned it before it was mature.
Look at the total program, what the breeder is producing, not at the individual title.

I'd never buy from a breeder that is sending dogs away for titles either.

Unless you really know what goes into titling a dog legitimately for IPO, you shouldn't shy away from a breeder that is actually training and titling their dogs in the sport.

Blitzkrieg1 03-23-2014 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shepherdmom (Post 5254402)
Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.

BYBs take note! Your customer base has spoken!

robk 03-23-2014 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shepherdmom (Post 5254402)
Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.

This statement is based on an opinion formed from incomplete information. My male is bite trained but also has rock solid character that has been revealed to me through the testing that comes with IPO training. I would trust him off leash walking through a mall full of screaming children.

Lauri & The Gang 03-23-2014 07:57 PM

I would want to see some type of stress-inducing sports title - like IPO, French Ring, Etc. - to prove the dog has courage, drive and the ability to turn it on AND off.

I would want to see some type of physical title - agility, lure coursing, weight pulling, etc. - to prove the dog has physical aptitude/endurance.

I also like titles that prove the dog can work WITH the handler - agility is great for that.

Herding titles are good because they prove the dog has the natural instincts the GSD was breed to have.

Nose work titles proves the dog has brains.

Merciel 03-23-2014 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onyx'girl (Post 5253898)
I don't think any title alone makes a dog breedworthy.

yep

Pongu's got buckets of titles. He's a terrible dog. He should never be bred (and, happily, never will be, since he got snipped when he was four months old. The shelter got that much right about him).

My dog is living proof of the fact that if you dump enough time and money and effort into the project, you can stick some pretty impressive titles on a complete nutbag of a dog. And I earned those titles fair and square -- we are not talking about "midnight trials" or purchased titles here. Throw those into the equation, and titles on paper tell you even less.

On the other hand, if you can see and evaluate a dog in person, and if you know what you are looking for, you may not need titles at all. I met Nymeria vom Wildhaus and her owner at an obedience trial today. I had, and have, no idea what titles Nymeria has. Maybe she doesn't have any; I didn't ask. But she's a great dog. In terms of intelligence and temperament, she is my ideal dog. I could tell that within two minutes of just seeing her in the trial environment.

The real value of titles is just that if the owner/breeder put those on the dog, then you can infer that the owner/breeder has worked with that dog and knows the dog's strengths and weaknesses really, really well. And if the dog has been on the circuit for a while, then other people (people who train at the same club, judges, and other competitors in the same sport) have also seen that dog, and you might be able to get outside feedback about whether that dog really is good.

If the dog has nothing, then that tells you something too, and what it tells me is "I don't want one of those dogs."

LoveEcho 03-23-2014 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shepherdmom (Post 5254402)
Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.

Echo has his CGC and he's insane, a horrible example of temperament. CGC doesn't mean squat beyond that the dog was able to perform basic obedience... it says nothing about the stability of the dog.

Just because a dog does well in IPO doesn't mean they're high energy and prone to bite. In fact, many dogs who succeed in the sport are the opposite and very balanced- exactly what the sport was supposed to demonstrate.

A particular title or another doesn't mean much to me- I'm looking for dogs who can be pets AND work. The whole package gets taken into consideration and is what is important.


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