Questions about becoming a breeder.

[carmspack]

an isolated white working line would be difficult to find and maintain because you are limited by selecting only white , or black or only black and red , you are denying yourself access to some prime working genetics . Then the other way round also , even if you had a super duper white - you would need to prove that the qualities are genetic and not fluke , and even then the group that is out there will not consider or incorporate what you have to contribute .

[Shaolin]

@Carmspack: Thank you for your kind words. It's not too often we get thanks for what we do and when we do, it speaks volumes.

I trust the breeder completely. I just want to make sure I'm going into this with all the knowledge I can. We are also still doing SAR training...well...taking a break right now because of my back, but hope to be back soon. My fear is that, if he is at a breeder for a week at a time, I would hate to interrupt his training once we get started back up every 3 or 4 months. I am also not sure if I want to do anything without him having a title- more than just CGC. I might decide to just hold off and work my way into the Obedience Trial world with Finn, then the next dog I go into him (or her) with the full intention of Trials and Breeding.

You are right, some dogs just don't have it in them, but, and maybe it's just me being the optimist, but I think it's there in every dog, it just has to be accessed in a different way, or it comes out in a different way.

@jocoyn: We don't train exclusively with the police. Every six months we have to go through the same test we had to go through to get on the team: Reaction to loud noises, unsteady surfaces, children, other dogs, if he is willing to leave with a stranger, and a few other things that I don't remember off the top of my head. I would love to get an objective opinion, tis why I'm here.

As for frozen, I'm working with a great AI specialist who came highly recommended. The group has a pretty good success rate. Depending on what you do, frozen v. fresh, there isn't too much of a difference in success rates.

@Blitzkreig1 & Freestep: I would love to help start a strong, WGSD working line. Funny you should mention health or temperment associated with the color. I've been told by severak different trainers that Whites are more aggressive, 'dumber', and are deaf or blind. When we first got him, we tried to go to a Puppy Play Class, but they refused to let us join the class because the said that Whites are very aggressive and they were afraid he would attack the other animals. My dog has never shown any aggressiveness towards humans or animals. He is probably the most loving dog I've ever had.

If anything, I would love to show that, WGSDs are just as good as any other color GSD. They are just as friendly, loving, playful, and have the same drive and ability to work that the other dogs of a different color do.

[carmspack]

Shaolin -- breeding , why not allow your breeder ONE very select breeding -- a special female where they are going to keep something back. I thought this was the deal , not having the dog a week at a time for public access or multiple services - just the one "to keep the line".

Whites have a reputation because breeding for a specific colour severly limits the genetics you have access to . Any time you make decisions based on cosmetics or appearance as a priority , then you loose something else, usually more important.
On the other hand lately I have seen some really stable correctly conformed white GSD - without exaggerations or extremes .

[Shaolin]

That's most likely what we are going to do; one, maybe two very selective breeding sessions. As I said in the beginning, I just really want to go into this with all the information I can have. I think I made that statement out of the thought of the long term, not specifically for Finn.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Shaolin

I am also not sure if I want to do anything without him having a title- more than just CGC.

You don't know how refreshing it is to hear someone say that.

You are right, some dogs just don't have it in them, but, and maybe it's just me being the optimist, but I think it's there in every dog, it just has to be accessed in a different way, or it comes out in a different way.

Some dogs really don't have "it" in them, or "it" is so hard to find and bring forward that the law of diminishing returns comes into play. In order for the dog to be trainable by anyone other than an expert, you want "it" to be easily accessable and come out in predictable ways.

I would love to help start a strong, WGSD working line. Funny you should mention health or temperment associated with the color. I've been told by severak different trainers that Whites are more aggressive, 'dumber', and are deaf or blind.

You may have a bad breeder in your area--if WGSDs are particularly despised by local trainers, there is probably a BYB nearby churning out dogs of very poor temperament. We have that syndrome here with Miniature Poodles.

If anything, I would love to show that, WGSDs are just as good as any other color GSD. They are just as friendly, loving, playful, and have the same drive and ability to work that the other dogs of a different color do.

Well, actually, the whole point is that they DON'T, generally, have the same drive and ability to work as standard color GSDs. This is partly because the gene pool is rather small. But more importantly, for a long time now, whites have not been selected for working ability, only coat color. As I understand it, this is starting to change and there are a very few breeders who are proving working ability by titling their dogs beyond a CGC. And I understand there are some breeders in Europe who are working their white GSDs in Schutzhund.

[Shaolin]

Originally Posted by Freestep

You don't know how refreshing it is to hear someone say that.

If I'm looking to promote the working side of the WGSDs, I wouldn't dream about bringing in an untitled female into the mix. In my line of work, we have a phrase: "If it isn't documented, it didn't happen." Just because people have said that my dog is a great dog, doesn't mean he is until I can put some blue ribbons and some alphabet soup behind his name. I'd happily neuter my dog and destroy all the samples before I let his, as of now, untitled butt into the breeding world.

Originally Posted by Freestep

Some dogs really don't have "it" in them, or "it" is so hard to find and bring forward that the law of diminishing returns comes into play. In order for the dog to be trainable by anyone other than an expert, you want "it" to be easily accessable and come out in predictable ways.

I completely understand. We had a girl in our SAR group who brought a dog who just wanted nothing to do with SAR at all. He had absolutely no drive what-so-ever. We all tried to do our part; lots of lovin', praise, and treats to try and help motivate this dog, but there was nothing we could do to motivate that dog. He ended up just becoming an honorary member of the team and that was that.

Originally Posted by Freestep

You may have a bad breeder in your area--if WGSDs are particularly despised by local trainers, there is probably a BYB nearby churning out dogs of very poor temperament. We have that syndrome here with Miniature Poodles.

I've heard that from a lot of different trainers and it was present in a lot of online research about the dog. I lived in Pittsburgh when we first got Finn and the trainer stated that she never met a good WGSD and that they were all evil. A trainer in MD told me that whomever trained her told her that Whites were two seconds from killing their owners and that any white in a home with a kid was just asking for the kid to be mauled to death. Even a kennel refused to take him because of the "WGSD will kill you" mentality. I can PM you the different websites that talk about the misconceptions.

Originally Posted by Freestep

Well, actually, the whole point is that they DON'T, generally, have the same drive and ability to work as standard color GSDs. This is partly because the gene pool is rather small. But more importantly, for a long time now, whites have not been selected for working ability, only coat color. As I understand it, this is starting to change and there are a very few breeders who are proving working ability by titling their dogs beyond a CGC. And I understand there are some breeders in Europe who are working their white GSDs in Schutzhund.

And I like where that particular trend is going. You have no idea how much it thrills me when Finn does anything he's not supposed to. I was told that, even with the lines in Finn, it was possible that I'd have an uphill battle on my hand. We...well...he potty trained in about 3 weeks. We had a set of sleigh bells on our back door that rang every time we opened the door to let him out. One evening, he did his little warble and nudged the bells. I let him out. Voila! He rings the bells every single time. His first recall, his first SAR test that he passed...I was so proud of him.

He does things that people have said he's not supposed to do. The fact that we had him around children in ages from 1 month old up to 15 years and he never once looked at the children the wrong way also helps to change the misconceptions.

[Freestep]

Be aware of the fact that the bar has, unfortunately, been set very low for white GSDs. So next to those ill-bred byb whites, any *normal* dog looks good... and your dog looks amazing. Not saying your dog isn't amazing, I'm just saying, look what we are comparing him with. When you can put your dog up there with working lines of standard color, and he still looks competitive, then your dog is amazing.

[Shaolin]

I completely understand. By the way, this was awesome! It gave my husband and I a lot to think about when it comes to breeding now and into the future. This was also what we needed, now that we are (slowly) starting to look for a new puppy. With our girl gone, we would like to bring in a new dog. The goal is a GSD, maybe Black, but we might be moving to an area that isn't GSD friendly (Lots of BSL) and with my back the way it is, I don't have the energy to be on the floor working with a high energy puppy. My hubby is great, but he gets frustrated easily, so it's me working on all the new things while he reinforces the old things.