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Old 06-28-2012, 10:38 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Oh and didn't Beethoven manage to almost wreck the house and the guy's career in every movie? And the drool!!
Drool, I forgot about that part.
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:13 PM   #42 (permalink)
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No more lectures, my point simply being that this person's take on gentics and breeding and the downfall of many purebreds is basically factual. The irony is that this breed is comprised of 3 or 4 different dogs so there is no reason the genepool should be as narrow as it is. We don't need to introduce another breed, and the OP, I think realizes this. What he is saying is that if the value system, of shows, trial, and breeders breeding for awards, prizes, money, and personal likes continues, then another breed interjected will be necessary to preserve the working heritage.....if that means anything to anyone. I hope they return to clarify their points further.
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Every breed out there is a mess right now due to poor breeding. There'd be no way to improve by outcrossing.

In a perfect world, everyone would breed the WHOLE PACKAGE, not ignoring temperament in favor of color or in many cases, just money.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:31 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I hope they return to clarify their points further.

Me too! This was a fascinating discussion and I really hope it continues!
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:43 PM   #45 (permalink)
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No more lectures, my point simply being that this person's take on gentics and breeding and the downfall of many purebreds is basically factual. The irony is that this breed is comprised of 3 or 4 different dogs so there is no reason the genepool should be as narrow as it is.
It's artificially narrow because breeders are hesitant to cross the lines. This fact bothers me, but I don't blame them.

[/quote]We don't need to introduce another breed, and the OP, I think realizes this. What he is saying is that if the value system, of shows, trial, and breeders breeding for awards, prizes, money, and personal likes continues, then another breed interjected will be necessary to preserve the working heritage.....if that means anything to anyone. I hope they return to clarify their points further.[/QUOTE]

Me too. But I *think* OP was saying that we *should* outcross to other breeds.

I agree with OP's point about how the "value system" is flawed. I think most of us actually agree with that, it's just that OP could have been more diplomatic about the way it was said, and who/what was to blame.
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:39 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Rather than doing an outcross and then having to cull (not the "pretty" definition, either) pups that turn out awful, it's much better to just travel around and check out GSDs from other lines. Whites shouldn't be written off, either. Some have excellent pigment and very nice, solid structure. A good dog is a good dog. But good outcross breedings to other lines are only as good as the planning, execution, and follow-up. Anyone planning on a major outcross needs to be involved with their program for a long time so as not to leave behind a mess of useless dogs and genetics.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:23 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I think the OP raised some interesting points. However, I respectfully disagree with his premise that the GSD gene pool is too small and his conclusion that the GSD needs to be outcrossed to another breed in order to improve the GSD. Rather, I think good breeders who have their hearts and heads in the right places will make improvements in the breed. Hearts and heads in the right places is the key.



With that said, I am not philosophically opposed to crosses and do not view it as a taboo so long as it is done with a purpose rather than pandering to a perceived market. A good dog is a good dog.

As others have mentioned, there are people crossing mals/dutchies with GSDs now. Law enforcement seems to be the target market of these breedings. Moreover, there have long been rumors of mals/dutchies in the GSD gene pool without them appearing on the official pedigrees. For instance, it has been rumored that there is mal blood behind Orry vh Antverpa. I am not saying this is true, but I would not be surprised if there lurks unknown mal/dutchie blood in the GSD gene pool.

GSDs are my breed of choice. However, I must admit that I am intrigued by the KNPV malinois/dutch shepherds. From my limited knowledge, it is no secret that the breeders have folded in different breeds in order to get what they wanted. I do not know that I would want to live with a KNPV mal/dutchie, but my very limited exposure to them left me more than a little impressed with these un-pedigreed "mixes."
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:53 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I find this topic very interesting. (:

In my opinion, if linecrossing is done then the genepool is not too small (though since I'm no breeder this is just a consumer opinion- I have met quite a few mixes of WGSL and DDR/Czech lines lately whom I have found quite remarkable).
However, if outcrossing were necessary to save our beloved breed or simply to create a new breed that is more stable... I do have a few breeds I think might work. Of course, the dogs of these pedigrees would all still need to be health, temperament and ability tested just like any purebred shepherd breeding.

To stabilize the temperaments a little more, into a less reactive dog, I believe I would add some Maremma sheepdog into the lines. Because they are a lesser known breed they have had a little less exposure to crooked breeders, at least in the US (to my research thus far), than other breeds. They are also not much larger in standard than shepherds. However, this crossing could bring about a more dominant/independent dog. I have found no commonly occurring health issues yet, but hip displasia would be a concern (as well as a few others that I just haven't unearthed yet).
Aside from the Maremma, I may breed in some American Indian Dog. I chose this breed because, like our beloved shepherds, they are highly versatile. They are reserved of strangers but are not meant to be vicious. Introducing their bloodline would, however, truly require an experienced and in control handler as well as very careful and consistent socialization. The breed has no breed specific genetic issues, and is not easily found so hasn't really been bred into smithereans (sp?). They are a little smaller than shepherds, but not small enough that I would expect "puny" offspring to result.
My last breed that comes to mind is the Karst Shepherd. Again, they require knowledgeable owners. However, if raised, trained and exercised correctly they are known to have very stable temperaments. Like the other breeds I have chosen, they have little exposure in the US and are generally tricky enough to find that there has been minimal damage to their lines. They are usually between 58-88 lbs so their size ranges in the shepherd's standard. I have not found any evidence of breed-specific genetic issues for these guys, either.

So, IMO, shepherds do not need outcrossing with other breeds. Other lines maybe, but not other breeds. And honestly, if all good breeders expand their range for breeding (even in their lines), we may have no issues at all with the genepool. But, those are my three top choices for breeds that I would likely agree to outcross shepherds to. OF COURSE: This would not just depend on breed, but also on the specific dogs being brought into the breeding and their pedigrees. (:
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Old 06-29-2012, 07:06 AM   #49 (permalink)
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@ Freestep......if intelligently crossing lines is the answer, than why wouldn't you "blame" them?? Crossing lines can be done by knowledgable breeders who place the overall health and vigor of the breed over their and the publics personal likes. So why don't you blame them???? Now crossing lines can be a disaster for superficial, title and testing reliant people; who know very little about lines, traits, genetics, history, of the breed and lines. BUT should we want these people breeding anyway????? Arent these the people that developed the lines and took them to extremes?? Somebody said it is what it is so we should let it be. Bah Hombug!!
We have big problems in the breed, there have been two solutions mentioned.....one inside the breed, and one outside the breed. The consensus is we don't want to go outside the breed. Then why wouldn't we "blame" responsible breeders that don't seek improvement "inside" the breed. Sure, you won't hear the sport or show people champion this(notice how quiet they are), but they never move until the reward is changed or the line becomes a pariah. But we still can encourage people to show the integrity to breed for what the breed should be.JMO
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:10 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Rather than doing an outcross and then having to cull (not the "pretty" definition, either) pups that turn out awful, it's much better to just travel around and check out GSDs from other lines. Whites shouldn't be written off, either. Some have excellent pigment and very nice, solid structure. A good dog is a good dog. But good outcross breedings to other lines are only as good as the planning, execution, and follow-up. Anyone planning on a major outcross needs to be involved with their program for a long time so as not to leave behind a mess of useless dogs and genetics.

Under the FCI the whites are a different breed and the SV will NEVER ever even recognize the existence of a white German Shepherd. Just ask people who are involved with the white GSD and fighting for the acceptance of the Berger Blanc Suisse with the AKC.

The SV is very very stoic when it comes up to people claiming that there is a white German Shepherd because there is no such thing.

If you outcross to another breed, you are on your own. The SV will never do it nor agree to it.
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