lmlloyd's thread: should GSD's be outcrossed?

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by Lakl

What bothered me was that his whole point was that he believed that the GSD gene pool was too small in order for any breeders to seriously think they were improving the breed or could consistently produce good stock, and that all the hype behind accomplishments and titles was just more or less a way for breeders to pretend that a problem did not exist (in a nutshell).

He actually raised some interesting points as the thread went on. Unless people want to read the other thread first or at least his posts on that thread, this one seems sort of pointless.

Artica German Shepherds

[Lakl]

Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds

He actually raised some interesting points as the thread went on. Unless people want to read the other thread first or at least his posts on that thread, this one seems sort of pointless.

Artica German Shepherds

I'm sorry, my perception of his argument was pointless??

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Jack's Dad

You people are missing the point.

I mean look how well out crossing has worked for humanity.

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by Lakl

I'm sorry, my perception of his argument was pointless??

I didn't mean your post was pointless, I meant this whole thread is pointless if people don't have a frame of reference. Your perception is what it is, and you're entitled to it.

My point was, the poster wrote several long messages that covered all sorts of things and some of them were pretty interesting including genetic diversity. How long can a breed survive and thrive etc. I hate to see this thread turned into a "we shouldn't breed GSD's to labs and that poster was an emotional idiot" thread, because they actually touched on some pretty thought provoking topics whether you agree with them or not. (general you, no one in particular)

[cliffson1]

I personally do not think the breed needs to be out crossed with another breed. But other than that, conception ally I agree with everything he wrote about the genetic/science part. I have been saying these same things for years and years. Most of the lines need hybrid vigor and you are not going to improve weaknesses in the lines by staying in the line with phenotype. We have the last 30 years of breeding of some lines that more than shows this.

[minerva_deluthe]

I vote for outcrossing. Labs? They have a calmer temperament, but on their own are a bit overly goofy for my taste. Hmm what else. I have a friend who has a Shepherd/Pit Bull cross. He is a lovely dog, very ball-focused, not dog aggressive, friendly with people, a very sturdy reliable dog.

I didnt know hybrid vigour was a myth? I noticed pet health insurance is less expensive on crosses than purebred GSDs.

[Lakl]

Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds

I didn't mean your post was pointless, I meant this whole thread is pointless if people don't have a frame of reference. Your perception is what it is, and you're entitled to it.

My point was, the poster wrote several long messages that covered all sorts of things and some of them were pretty interesting including genetic diversity. How long can a breed survive and thrive etc. I hate to see this thread turned into a "we shouldn't breed GSD's to labs and that poster was an emotional idiot" thread, because they actually touched on some pretty thought provoking topics whether you agree with them or not. (general you, no one in particular)

No, I get that, which is why I asked him to start a new thread. I don't breed or carry enough knowledge about the genetics of the different lines, so I didn't really feel equipped to continue the discussion. I think Freestep created this thread was to bring him back into the discussion and perhaps others that could discuss it on the more scientific level that he perceived it. I don't think anyone called him an idiot unless I missed something, but he was close minded about breeders, their goals for this breed, and the perception of genetics regarding the breed as well.

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

I have been saying these same things for years and years. Most of the lines need hybrid vigor and you are not going to improve weaknesses in the lines by staying in the line with phenotype. We have the last 30 years of breeding of some lines that more than shows this.

So it's not that the gene pool isn't large enough, it's that people don't take advantage of it?

[Liesje]

Normally I'd say why would anyone cross breeds. Lately though having gotten into flyball I've been able to observe several dozens of intentional cross breeds and talk to the breeders about their dogs. I talked to someone at our last tournament about his cross breeding and despite there being two breeds involved, it was no different than talking to a GSD old-timer about bloodlines and pedigrees. I mean this guy knew the dogs for several generations, explained exactly why they did the cross they did (and not just the breeds but the specific dogs and their lines, why the female was the breed she was and the male the breed he was and not the other way around, and how the cross they did would be used in their breeding program in the future). I guess it's a free country so who am I to criticize? I think he knew more about his cross breeds than I do about my purebred GSDs! This type of cross breeding gets criticized for being "extreme" (breeding for a certain sport) but that is not always the case. He was explaining to me that the crosses he's done are not just for the best flyball dog but a more trainable dog overall, a good size and strength for a robust dog but small enough to do a number of other sports. If he was wanting to only breed dogs that excelled at flyball the breedings would have been different. Granted this was just one experience learning about one particular breeding program but it was pretty enlightening and I was impressed. If you looked past the fact that two breeds were involved it's really no different than GSD breeders breeding Schutzhund dogs that *also* can excel at agility, obedience, police work, etc. and be great pets.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds

My point was, the poster wrote several long messages that covered all sorts of things and some of them were pretty interesting including genetic diversity. How long can a breed survive and thrive etc. I hate to see this thread turned into a "we shouldn't breed GSD's to labs and that poster was an emotional idiot" thread, because they actually touched on some pretty thought provoking topics whether you agree with them or not. (general you, no one in particular)

That's why I re-started the thread, to give the OP a chance to state his/her case (hopefully in a less inflammatory way this time) so that the conversation could continue. Hopefully OP will come back so we aren't talking amongst ourselves about something someone else said in another thread...