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Old 05-01-2012, 10:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I chose one working and one show so that after my research on participating in SchH and shows, I will have at least one breeder for each (will not have to be dissapointed I guess). I don't really plan to become a breeder (if I do wind up doing so, I intend to take my time until I'm at LEAST midthirties, possibly a bit older so that I know what I'm doing).
I just know that I will not neuter without medical reason, so if he (in not only my eyes but the eyes of proffessionals) is a dog that would do well bred, then I MAY stud him. Again, if the breeder agrees. And of course if anyone with a worthy female shows interest.
My goal, should I breed, would be to get solid temperament, good confirmation, good health and working ability. Which is why I asked about doing SchH and shows (:
I don't require being able to breed my next guy. I'm more or less curious how it would/should pan out id he is worthy of being bred.
I definitely won't take the steps to being a true breeder until I can afford to have the right dogs, know this wonderful breed inside out, have the land for it and so on (:

Edit- From what I have seen of inbreeding it is negative, however that was multiple generations of it (at least six). So I migh as well ask... What is tbe effect of inbreeding shepherds?
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Also- Does anyone have a link to good site for learning about the lines? I couldn't find a thread dedicated to all the lines/types and Google is turning up nadaaa.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Also- Does anyone have a link to good site for learning about the lines? I couldn't find a thread dedicated to all the lines/types and Google is turning up nadaaa.
You can't learn about lines from the internet. You need to get out and see them work, see them shown, interact with them. Reading on the internet will cause you to become biased with untrue information and false generalizations. Find a GSD club or a Schutzhund club near you so that you can go and observe.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I am going to do that. But it never hurts to also READ on the differences in the meantime.

In addition, not all information on the internet is false or biased. The info I was finding quite clearly was. That's why I asked for a link. I won't be able to visit a club until the weekend. I have work from 3-1. What I CAN do now is read up on SchH, showing and the lines. I honestly don't see how it can hurt to do so. If you have an aversion to that then sorry, but I would like you to respect my decision to research until I can observe. In fact I expect it. I did not post to be discouraged or get it in argument, I did so to learn (:
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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For me the differences between lines if we're talking west German, Czech, DDR, etc are too overgeneralized. What is more interesting is if you look at "lines" as in bloodlines coming from individual dogs or individual kennels/breeding programs that consistently produce certain traits. That's really the type of knowledge you'd be after if you're considering breeding and the best way to get it is hands on. Someone might tell me that X-dog tends to product Y-trait and I'm like "yeah, OK" but when I go watch the progeny and see that in person it can be irrefutable. I don't know that there are any sources on the Internet that offer such comprehensive information, other than individual people (some of whom are on this forum) but then you'd need to pick their brains with specifics.

Also, getting at your other thread, you need more in-depth knowledge of these pedigrees to breed well because breeding is much different than training and competing. I'm not a breeder, right now I train and compete. I have a really nice young dog that has a good temperament, good drives, several very nice qualities that make him a really nice working dog and with the right handler (probably not me!) he could easily compete at a very high level. However looking at his pedigree, he's not really that valuable as a breeding dog. He has what I consider more of an "end-user" pedigree meaning a solid combination of dogs that bring in various desirable traits without expressing too much that is undesirable, but it's hard to pair his pedigree with other lines/dogs and get anything with real purpose other than just pairing two nice, accomplished dogs.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GsdLoverr729 View Post

So, I have decided I would like to get involved in SchH and possibly showing. I am going to use the next few years to research and learn as much as possible about doing both. I am also going to check out some local clubs. (: I also plan to get the CGC I had previously decided my next shepherd would be male, so as I thought about it I began thinking about the fact that I do not plan to neuter without medical reason (please do not focus on this and start a war people. I have never neutered my males).
That being said, the thought crossed my mind of breeding.
Everything until the last line sounds great.

Now that breeding has crossed your mind, let that thought keep going on its merry way down the road.

Seriously. Forget all about breeding, and concentrate on raising, training, and titling your pup. Thinking about breeding now puts the cart before the horse. Go ahead and study bloodlines and learn all you can while you're raising your pup. But every time the thought of breeding comes up, or someone else brings it up, don't give the thought the light of day.

After your dog is titled and accomplished, passes all his health checks, and proven himself breedworthy... forget about breeding.

If someone with a breedworthy bitch shows interest in breeding to your male, THEN you can start thinking about it. *If* it happens. At this stage of the game, I wouldn't get too proactive about campaigning your male for breeding. You will still be too young and probably won't have enough knowledge to know what bloodlines mix and match well, and you probably won't have enough experience to spot a breedworthy female.

If you have a good mentor, I would defer all breeding decisions to them.

If you start a pup with the intent to breed him, it's going to color every thought and every thing you do with him. It will cloud your judgement and confuse your priorities. You need to keep a neutral and unbiased view, which is hard enough with a pet dog, let alone a competition dog. Enjoy the DOG, love the DOG, treat him as an individual, recognize his strengths but do not blind yourself to his weaknesses. He is your partner, your buddy, above all else. Thinking of him as a walking stud fee puts too much value on the wrong things at this stage of the game.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Well the breeding is more of a fleeting thought. I don't plan on breeding him. I am just being hypothetical with the situation that he turns out to be a breedworthy dog.
Freestep- I don't openly want to breed him. I want to have fun and bond with my dog (: I will be researching lines and observing them in action. But this is pretty much to expand my knowledge. I was planning on, should he turn out to be breedworthy, relying on the breeder and at least one other proffessional to teach me and make the final decision on if the female should be bred with him. So two mentors (: As for stud fee, I hadn't even considered that o-o My curiosity was based simply on bettering the breed and genepool. As I said in my first post, though, he is going to be my baby regardless of that.

Also: Based on my reading (may change when I observe firsthand, but this is my current thought), I am leaning towards a WGSL (: This way I can do shows, and have a dog with the drive to do SchH Of course, this is relying on the correct breeder as well (:
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:28 AM   #18 (permalink)
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My personal advice is get the dog you want to live with and train (which may or may not be the best dog you'd want for breeding) and start from there. In the end, it should really be up to *you* to make the decisions about breeding. Having mentors is a good thing but like everything else that should not substitute for valuable experience. You are the advocate for your dog. I'm just saying this because I see people being strung along or duped into doing this or that with their dogs because of what a breeder wants and in the end there are problems or the person is just being used. I don't like going to a show and asking someone about their puppies and instead of getting legitimate answers about the goals of that breeding I get, "well so-and-so breeder said we should breed X-bitch to Y-dog so we did, aren't they cute?" (and of course X-bitch was sold to them by so-and-so and Y-dog is a stud owned by so-and-so). If you breed your dog that makes YOU a breeder and fair game to hold to the same standards to which we hold other breeders. I may be going against the grain on this forum but that's how I feel about my own dogs and how I decide whether or not to breed. They're my dogs and in the end it will always be my decision and if I go forward with it, then *I* need the reasoning and experience to back it up.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:39 AM   #19 (permalink)
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It would take a minimum of 5 to 10 years, if you went out and trained , studied, and went to show/sport/working events every week to start to get a clue to the amount of information to be able to read pedigrees well enough to make informed breeding decisions. For some it takes much more, for a very few maybe less. The breed is so complex, there is so much misinformation, so many biases, so few "well rounded mentors", that make this very difficult. The breed today is so specialized that many experts only know about what they participate in. Usually show or sport.
Take your time, raise your dog, train your dog to a significant level, get into a club or organization with GS that are doing something.....and as time goes on you will see how much there is to know, then you can start making decisions on what is good or bad, right oe wrong.
You would be surprised at how many people see something once or twice, form an opinion(usually negative..lol), then go out on internet advising others on said subjective matter when there are thousands of other examples to refute what they saw. When you haven't seen many many examples of what is being talked about, you have no idea that what they are saying is based on limited information, and in many cases not really accurate. Take your time and learn to handle and train your dog to a high level......there's a wealth of knowledge that comes with that journey.

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Old 05-02-2012, 09:05 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GsdLoverr729 View Post
Also: Based on my reading (may change when I observe firsthand, but this is my current thought), I am leaning towards a WGSL (: This way I can do shows, and have a dog with the drive to do SchH Of course, this is relying on the correct breeder as well (:
This is why you have to go out and watch the dogs. You've already read, and you've already made up your mind based on a few internet websites. If you talk to people on this forum they will tell you that to really compete/excel at Schutzhund you're going to want a working line dog. Although WGSL have the drive to do Schutzhund, they don't do it the way that a working line does. Also, WGSL breeders will tell you that its pretty hard to win an AKC show with a WGSL dog.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but I don't do Schutzhund because I don't have the time to. The people I know that show, would never have time to do Schutzhund as well. I think you really need to get out there with your current dog and see the amount of time it takes to title a dog in anything, and also show the dog and compete for a championship as well.

It's really great to hear that you have such big plans, but until you realize the time commitment this will take, you can't really plan on doing one or the other.

The reason I didn't want you reading any websites is that there pretty much aren't any unbiased opinions. Without seeing the dogs and the lines in action, you'll develop the same biases. It creates the posters that come on this forum and go "I don't want a X dog because its XYZ" without ever watching the actual dog. Like it was stated, many times you get generalizations, and generalizations are pretty much prejudices, and its really bad to base your decisions on other people's opinions.

So I guess it does HURT to read in the mean time.
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